Can someone explain the whole Israel conflict to me?

[md2000]

@barbitu8

Undoubtedly many Arabs left Israel on their own accord. In many instances, the Jews implored the Arabs to stay and build a nation together, esp. in Haifa, which today as 50% Arabs. The total non-Jewish population in Israel is 25%

Many Arabs left Dir Yassen, and it has been said they were forced out. However, the Arabs told them to leave as they were planning to attack the city. On the night of April 9, 1948 the inhabitants of Dir Yassen were surprised by loudspeakers calling upon them to evacuate immediately. That was admitted in a pamphlet issued by the Secretariat-General of the Arab League, entitled “Israel’s Aggression.”

Almost a million Arabs left Israel, but expected to soon return as soon as the Jews were “driven to the sea.” They became refugees, subsisting on aid from the UN and Israel.

Most of the Jews living in the Arab countries were expelled. Noone is talking about their right to return. Those numbers exceed a million.

md2000 You contradict yourself. In one sentence you state that the settlers bought the land, but in the next sentence you indicate the locals were pushed out. It was unfertile, arid lands, and anybody who goes to Israel can see the extent of the irrigation pipes the Jews installed.
The land in the west bank was unoccupied. Israel claims the land they occupied during the war. Since this was a defensive war, the UN charter did not demand they return it. Under the Oslo accord, Israel agreed not to build any new settlements. Israel maintains they haven’t, but merely adding to existing settlements. The Israeli Supreme Court recently said that certain Jewish settlers must be evicted, as that land was occupied by Arabs. All the Arabs living in Israel are Israel citizens with full rights of any citizen. Some hold political offices.

Let’s see. Israel gave up their settlements in the Gaza strip, and forcibly had to evict the settlers, who were compensated. In response to this show of good will, Hezbollah fortified the strip and uses it to bomb and attack Israel.

Israel has, as I noted, shown good will, but the PA (now the PLO) have not shown any. Israel vacated the Gaza strip. The PA was supposed to eliminate the sections in its charter calling for the elimination of Israel. It never has. Arafat said he eliminated those paragraphs, but he did not have the authority to do so. One can reasonably expect that since Israel was implementing the Oslo accord, the PA would do likewise. Only a nation intent on suicide would continue to make concessions with no *quid pro quo[/].

See, the revisonist history meme surfaces still.
“It was unfertile, arid lands, and anybody who goes to Israel can see the extent of the irrigation pipes the Jews installed.
The land in the west bank was unoccupied”
So nobody lived in Bethlehem, a primarily Arab city, before the settlers arrived. Large swaths of olive groves and other farms are a recent invention that the Arabs picked up watching the Isrealis? Nazareth, Hebron, Nablus are all brand new cities in the last century? Nobody lived on the west bank of the Jordan River, a major source of fresh irrigation water and probably the most fertile region in the area? All those farmers complaining the security fence is cutting them off from their fields have only been there a few decaes, including the centuries-old convent being cut off?

Perhaps it’s self-deception, but the Israeli newcomers would like to convince themselves and us that they have as much right to the land as the other inhabitants, so denying anyone lived there is a convenient justification.

Obviously, the first settlers bought their land. Once the Israelis owned the courts and administered the territories, it became easier to help themselves. Eviction and expropriation by the government, clearing areas for security reason - all methods were used.

I’m not claiming to be an expert, but let’s pick on a particular case I read about; a man owned a house in old Jerusalem, but he fled duing the war and became a refugee, unable to return. His nephew and their family now occupy the house. When he died, his heir - also a refugee, also outside Israel - technically inherited the house. But, the law in Israel says that the house cannot be inherited by someone outside Israel, so an Israel organization trying to push Arabs out of the old city applied to buy it as abandoned property. The court case bounced around for a while, when I read the article the nephew’s family had lost another appeal and it was shown they tried to claim they bought it before the old man died but that was a fraudulent document.

So the Israelis may have their own law on their side, and may claim all they do is legal, but in the eyes of the other side legal and fair do not equate.

For each claim, you will see a counterclaim.

“offered a capital in Jerusalem” - really? At no time has Israel ever offered to even share, let alone concede, any part of Jerusalem. That, and its’s unwillingness to give up settlements deep in West Bank territory, are probably the biggest sticking points.

If you want to find solitary examples of Israelis mistreating Arabs, using them as human shield on a jeep, beating their joints with rocks until tthey ar broken - on vide - or running over an American activist with a bulldozer and then claiming they did not see her in her bright yellow vest - there are plenty of examples. The actions of individuals are irrelant in the big scheme, but they do provide points for the Palestinians to add to their list of why they hate. As for terrorist acts against Israelis - heck, if you go back to the news reports of 10 to 20 years ago, bombings of civilians was a frequent occurence. Palestinians gave us the meme of crazy middle-eastern suicidally dangerous killers…

OTOH, consider from the Israeli side. They evacuated Hebron, gave up trying to defend a small enclave deep in the heart of an Arab city (See discussion above, no Arabs lived there…). They asked the Palestinian administration, who agreed, to protect the holy site, the tomb of the Patriarch. First thing that happened, as soon as the Israelis left, the site was completely trashed by a mob. Would it surprise you to learn the Israelis don’t trust the Palestinians?

The Palestinian government is noted for both corruption and inability to control its citizens. The Israelis obviously want to see some sign the other side can keep its promises.

Quite frequently, home-made rockets rain into areas near the Gaza strip. while the Hezbollah running the place have claimed to be keeping a truce, there are even more radical factions who fill the gap. Nobody loses points in Paletine for saying “Death to Israelis” and anyone who suggests moderation may be killed. Suspicion, probably valid, is that Hezbollah will let the other factions fire rockets when it wants to make a point, maybe even encourage them, and then claim they had no control over than and did not condone it.

you can’t make peace with the other side if the other side does not control and speak for everybody.

So is it any wonder the place is such a mess that nobody can sort it out? You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t beat sense into it.

[barbitu8]

The American activist stood in front of the tank and the driver was unable to see her no matter what she wore. She was actively doing this sort of thing, but unfortunately this time she was unable to avoid death. Her estate brought action in Israel for damages, and the highest Israel court, which has a record of dealing fairly with everyone, concluded that there was no negligence. Considering her low position among the rocks, the driver simply could not see her.

Which brings to mind the many made up videos of Israelis shooting, and even killing, children. One of those deceased children show up hale and healthy shortly thereafter.

The one overriding reason why no peace agreement has been had is that Palestine does not want a two-state solution. They want the one-state solution, the state of Palestine. Just read the rantings of Iran’s leader at the UN. This is all you hear from the PA, the elimination of Israel.

[barbitu8]

I didn’t say noone lived in the West Bank, but in those parts where settlements were made. Obviously there are fertile regions in the area. but the first Jews to emigrate there around the beginning of the 20thC occupied arid portions of the land. They bought the land from very willing sellers, and due to extremely hard work under difficult conditions, made the land tillable. There were some Jews living there, as I said before, for centuries, but that was on the fertile lands and big cities.

[ralph124c]

I can understand why the Palestinians have a dispute with Israel-but why the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc.? None of these countries were ever threatened by Israel, and most of them are poor countries-whose citizens would benefit greatly if their respective military budgets were reduced.
What interest does an Egyptian peasant have in any conflict with Israel?
None, as far as I can see.

[samclem]

Moved to Great Debates from GQ.

samclem, moderator

[Little_Nemo]

@ralph124c

I can understand why the Palestinians have a dispute with Israel-but why the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc.? None of these countries were ever threatened by Israel, and most of them are poor countries-whose citizens would benefit greatly if their respective military budgets were reduced.
What interest does an Egyptian peasant have in any conflict with Israel?
None, as far as I can see.

A cynical answer is that the ruling regimes in these countries like having an outside enemy they can use to unite their own country and direct attention away from domestic problems.

[Musicat]

@samclem

@Shodan

Israel exists. Some people don’t want that to be the case.

Moderator note.

Not exactly a helpful response in General Questions.

samclem

Mod, shmod. This is the most concise and accurate response in the whole thread.

Regards,
Musicat

[newcomer]

Well-formed, well-funded, ideologically well-grounded, Holocaust-defined national movement landed in an area where people who lived there were waking up from thousands of years of foreign imperial domination with no structural basis of autonomous and independent country.

Since landing there, said national movement played a superior game in taking advantage of historical determinism sweeping said area and demonstrated superior use of high-tech instruments employed in the rectification of national boundaries.

On a serious note, Arafat was corrupted and Palestinians wont admit it. Otherwise, there would a Palestinian country next to Israel long time ago. So, it’ll be a while…

[GreasyJack]

@ralph124c

I can understand why the Palestinians have a dispute with Israel-but why the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc.? None of these countries were ever threatened by Israel, and most of them are poor countries-whose citizens would benefit greatly if their respective military budgets were reduced.
What interest does an Egyptian peasant have in any conflict with Israel?
None, as far as I can see.

Israel has taken sizable chunks of land from all of its direct neighbors, so that alone is a pretty big point of contention. Furthermore, any solution to the Palestinian problem other than expelling the Israelis and returning the land would almost necessarily involve resettling some of the refugees in neighboring countries, which is something those countries do not want. That’s part of the problem with the Palestinians’ seeming unwillingness to compromise-- groups that support the destruction of Israel get massive outside aid, whereas those that support compromise do not.

I think LittleNemo’s answer is mostly correct for countries like Iran and Iraq which don’t really have any direct stake in the region. Earlier in Israel’s history, there was concern in the greater Islamic world about access to holy sites in Jerusalem, but the Israeli government (in cooperation with Jordan) has done a good job allowing access and managing them in a respectful manner so that is mostly a settled point.

[newcomer]

@Little_Nemo

A cynical answer is that the ruling regimes in these countries like having an outside enemy they can use to unite their own country and direct attention away from domestic problems.

This cynical answer applies to ALL and EVERY ruling regime — including “democracies”. It’s a technique available and used by all not some special tool invented when Israel showed up in the area.

[carnivorousplant]

@samclem

Moderator note.
Not exactly a helpful response in General Questions.

samclem

I thought that explained it rather well, actually.

[barbitu8]

@ralph124c

I can understand why the Palestinians have a dispute with Israel-but why the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc.? None of these countries were ever threatened by Israel, and most of them are poor countries-whose citizens would benefit greatly if their respective military budgets were reduced.
What interest does an Egyptian peasant have in any conflict with Israel?
None, as far as I can see.

The peasants don’t. And many Arabs don’t. It’s the leadership. However, the Egyptians detest the Israelis for defeating them in several wars. As an aside, I played tennis with a doctor from Egypt. When I told him I was Jewish, his attitude towards me abruptly changed. It was obvious to me that there is an animosity by the Egyptians towards Jews.

[carnivorousplant]

@barbitu8

The peasants don’t. And many Arabs don’t. It’s the leadership. However, the Egyptians detest the Israelis for defeating them in several wars. As an aside, I played tennis with a doctor from Egypt. When I told him I was Jewish, his attitude towards me abruptly changed. It was obvious to me that there is an animosity by the Egyptians towards Jews.

I honestly thought that returning the Sinai and the peace treaty made everyone happy.
Israel and Egypt, that is.

[treis]

@barbitu8

The peasants don’t. And many Arabs don’t.

The ~1 million or so Palestinians who lost their homes do.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@treis

The ~1 million or so Palestinians who lost their homes do.

Where do you get the “1 million or so” figure from?

The number of refugees from the Naqba was far less and as many Jews lost their homes.

Were you thinking of the present absentees or something else?

[carnivorousplant]

@treis

The ~1 million or so Palestinians who lost their homes do.

Not that it makes it any easier for the Palestinians, but several million Jews lost their homes and sometimes lives under the Germans. That is true to be said under the Tsar and the English. Shakespeare wrote The Merchant of Venice without ever meeting a Jew, their being expelled from England years before he was born.

The situation is bad for everyone.

[treis]

@Ibn_Warraq

Where do you get the “1 million or so” figure from?

The number of refugees from the Naqba was far less and as many Jews lost their homes.

Were you thinking of the present absentees or something else?

The number of Palestinian refugees of the 1948 war is estimated at between 700,000 and 800,000, and another 280,000 to 350,000 people were refugees of the 1967 war.[9][10][11][12] Approximately 120,000-170,000 among the 1967 refugees are believed to have also been refugees from the 1948 war, fleeing a second time.[13] Today, the estimated number of Palestinian refugees, including both first-generation refugees and their descendants, exceeds four million.[14]

Palestinian right of return

[Little_Nemo]

@newcomer

This cynical answer applies to ALL and EVERY ruling regime — including “democracies”. It’s a technique available and used by all not some special tool invented when Israel showed up in the area.

Of course. But the question was specifically asked about why countries in the region are hostile to Israel.

[TonySinclair]

@carnivorousplant

Not that it makes it any easier for the Palestinians, but several million Jews lost their homes and sometimes lives under the Germans. That is true to be said under the Tsar and the English.

That’s a great argument for reparations, maybe including enough land for a Jewish State, from Germany, Russia, or England. Or several other European countries that exploited and mistreated Jews for centuries.

But I don’t see why it should have anything to do with Palestinians. Before they were flooded with illegal immigrants after WWI, Palestinians generally treated Jews well — certainly better than most European countries.

Native Americans were horribly mistreated by the US. Hey, I have an idea, let’s give them half of Switzerland!

[carnivorousplant]

@TonySinclair

Native Americans were horribly mistreated by the US. Hey, I have an idea, let’s give them half of Switzerland!

That will work.
We can give the rest of it to the Palestinians!
Problem solved! You’re a genius!