I’m wondering if you know yours. The 10C have a number of variations, one of which I’ve found has the 2nd as “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” Either way, it’s pretty apparent that some of these protesters view that particular copy as a god, what with their comments of “Don’t take God out of our courtrooms!” The meaning couldn’t be plainer.
And have you noticed that only two out of the ten are actually illegal, while the rest are 100% religious in nature? What part of SOCAS are you not getting?
And you stil haven’t answered my question about atheists getting a fair trial. I’m still waiting.
Lastly, Christ dictated the 10C to Moses? Huh? Chronology problems much?
In all seriousness, gobear probably knows more about religion than most Christians do. He is very well spoken and educated about many religions whether he believes in them or not.
Some of these Christians in AL are acting as if this monument IS God. They are chanting that you can’t take GOD from the building. They are behaving as if GOD himself IS this hunk of rock. In doing that, they are in a sense showing reverence and awe to something other than God. It is a monument that was made by a man…not divinely inspired. They are on some level showing worship to it.
As far as the 10C being written by Moses, the Bible gives us 2 different accounts. In Exodus it says Moses writes the words on the tablets. In Deuteronomy it says the Lord writes the words himself.
My lovely wife has covered most of your earlier post, but I wanted to address this. This particular topic has been mentioned in this and other threads, but I think some people just aren’t getting it.
Yes, the Ten Commandments are on a wall of the U.S. Supreme Court. They are there not as a religious display, but as a historical homage to ancient legal systems. The walls of the U.S. Supreme Court have a myriad of other such carvings on them (Code of Hammurabi, works of Solon, etc.); I believe MEBuckner provided a fairly extensive list of the carvings/decorations in one of the threads on this topic.
As I mentioned earlier, I’ve got no problem with a salute to historical laws. It’s when the whole thing is framed in a religious atmosphere (which the Supreme Court displays do NOT do, and which Roy Moore specifically went out of his way TO do) that the problem arises, because that defies the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution.
That is a forever problem of people reading the Bible and other religious material, and interpreting them different ways. All there is to it. You must admit that the standard 10 commandments for Christians, which is what this debate is all about, are the good 'ole stone tablet 10 commandments. I have no problem with people who wish to interpret them differently. That is their right.
Please refresh my memory on the atheist question, please, and I will respond.
Ahem. I do know my commandments. The KJV translation says, "3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. " The word “false” is not in there (mostly because the early Israelites were henotheists and not yet fully monotheists). If you’re going to quote Scripture, do try to get the words right.
The reason I call the Alabama protestors is that they are investing way too much religious devotion to a thing. The Ten Commandments, the Scriptures, crosses, icons, and all other religious objects are utterly worthless in themselves–they are only signposts to God. If one starts treating these articles as containing mana or venerating these objects as if they had power in themselves, you have fallen into idolatry.
The man crying “Get your hands off our God” is, IMO, an idolater because he is treating the statue as it were God. Only the statue had been removed, but God has not. Do you really think that any actions taken by puny humans can affect the Almighty in any degree whatsoever?
And if Jesus dictated the first 5 books of the Bible to Moses, He might have used a copy editor because they contain a great many inconsistencies.
I want to apologize to you for the sarcasim in my post to you. It was not neccessary nor of my nature. But when I see someone post “Why don’t they build a cross and hang themselves from it”, I think this goes beyond flaming. I see it as vile hatred, nothing more and nothing less. Again, just not neccessary for a group of intelligent people.
Thanks for correcting me on the word “false”, but the message is the same when you take ou that word. 2nd paragraph, I agree there are some zealots out there, and I think that some of what they do is wrong. I completely agree with everything you say in this paragaph.
Inconsistencies in the bible? I agree, somewhat. A lot of this goes back to people reading the same words and interpreting them differently. I also think that a lot of this has to do with the Old Testament, with was a vicious portrayal of God. For some time now, Christians have been under the “law”, or “word” of the New Testament only, and I like it that way.
Well, if one believes that Jesus is the Second Person of the Godhead, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father, then it makes perfect sense to believe that He (and the Father and the Holy Spirit) dictated the 10C to Moses (that is, if one accepts the literal existence of Moses).
No apology needed and I can’t even find any sarcasm no matter how hard I try to with my 1920’s sarcasm detection ray.
I think you will find that if you state your opinions and beliefs here but not try to ram them down others throats that for the most part, people will listen and respect you even if they don’t agree with you.
I would much rather be thought of as a Christian on this board who valued other’s opinions than a closed minded fundie who was only out to hunt down and convert those who disagree with me.
In all honestly, a few years ago I might have been one of those chanting about taking God away from Alabama. But, after much soul searching and educating myself and not just accepting something as truth because it’s how I was taught or just “because” I have learned a lot about myself and what I believe.
{Jon Stewart]Whaaaa?[/Jon Stewart]. How can the OT be “a vicious portrayal of God” if as you already said, it was dictated by Jesus Christ? Are you saying it’s JC’s version of “Mommy Dearest” (or “Daddy Dearest”)?
And the inconsistencies in the OT are not a matter of translation, but of such things as two creation stories and Moses being able to see God’s backside when God is supposed to be a spirit.
Yeah, I kinda figured that. But it takes a large amount of interpretation and non-literal reading and assumption to come to that point. One has to wonder why Christ was not mentioned in the story of Moses, and indeed not in the OT – ever.
(OK, there was the whole prophecy thing, but once again one has to wonder why God got Christ’s name wrong. You’d think that Dad would have gotten that right, at least, being that His only son was the most important person in the history of Everything.)
You know, Kyla’s posts of a day or so ago in this thread got me to thinking. Roy Moore is off-base on this whole thing in more ways than one.
You are exactly correct – Christians are (or should be) operating under the new covenant brought by Christ – he did away with the old covenants established with Abraham and Moses. The “laws” we are to obey as part of our religion are those Jesus brought, not those of the old covenant. (This was discussed a bit earlier in this thread.)
Going by this, Jesus identified the two most important commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. That was it. Two. Not ten.
If Moore wants to create a display honoring ancient laws, the Ten Commandments is the way to go. But that’s not what he wanted to do. He’s said repeatedly this is a religious display. But to honor the root source of the “laws” of the Christian religion, the monument should have the words of Christ on there, when Christ outlined the laws Christians should follow.
So by creating a monument to the Ten Commandments, Moore is incorrectly attributing the source of the moral law he wants others to follow. If he wants this display to be strictly religious in nature, he should’ve made a monument to the Two Commandments.
Moore has, in essence, placed a golden calf in the judicial building. And what’s worse, the calf is malformed.
Did anyone watch the “rally” yesterday?
With James Dobson and all?
They are pretty much making this out to be a “we christians are going to be outlawed” kind of thing!
Actually, if Christians are under the “New Testament only,” then the Ten Commandments aren’t really Christian, at all (especially if they came from the “vicious” (?) Old Testament.
I deny that the Old Testament was vicious or superseded, but if you think that it was both vicious and wholly superseded by the arrival of Jesus, why are you defending a shrine to a part of it as “Christian”?
To Peace Lady: this started off as a Pit thread, thus all the vitriol and “fucking cross” rhetoric. It’s you who successfully made a Great Discussion out ot it by treating it as one.
Perhaps Peace Lady (or someone else) would like to spin off a new thread to the earnest discussion of Roy Moore and the monuments into Great Debates, so those of us who want to talk about the issue civilly can do so there.
The Catholics and the Protestants divide the passage up differently actually, and the Jews have yet another summary version. The text itself gives no indication that these are the “ten commandments.” The only place the OT ever reffers to the “ten commandments” is in referrence to a DIFFERENT set of commandments which are supposed to replace the tablets destroyed by Moses (but are not the same at all). If the commandments are so important to Christianity, then can you point me to either a NT passage or even ancient documents that emphasize the Ten Commandments separately from the myriad of other traditional laws?
The focus on the Ten Commandments is mostly a modern invention, not a constant central theme throughout Western history or even Western Christianity. Their historical and theological role is by far being overstated by Moore and his supporters.
The U.S. Supreme Court building doesn’t have copies of the Ten Commandments all over the place; it has several representations of Moses. Moses appears on the East Pediment (the tablets he’s holding appear to be blank; he is flanked by the Chinese philosopher Confucius and the Greek statesman and legislator Solon). The courtroom frieze includes depictions of a number of historical figures: Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Octavian (the Emperor Augustus), Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, King John, Louis IX, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon, all of whom were important “lawgivers” or in some way notable in the history of the development of law. The depiction of Moses shows him holding a tablet on which are visible some of the Hebrew words from the Commandments, but not, interestingly enough, any of the words from the part of the Commandments dealing with God. (Another interesting point is that Muhammad is depicted holding the Qur’an.) The ceremonial bronze doors to the courthouse have a bunch of historical scenes from the history of law, but Mt. Sinai isn’t included. The several representations of Justice have their roots in the pagan Greek and Roman goddesses Themis and Justitia.
In other words, the Supreme Court building doesn’t represent an instance of a government official using his official position to tell the citizens what religion they should practice.
