Not possible. Ash’s special order is specific: “Bring back alien life form. All other priorities rescinded.” There is no way the Company didn’t know exactly what was on LV-426.
well I just popped the DVD in unfortunately I can’t stay up the whole night watching. So I skipped ahead to where she confronts Ash. I don’t see any convincing evidence they knew what they were getting.
Sure they knew there was something to gather but it was merely referred to as ‘alien life-form’. The warning beacon could have very well been translated by the company to say “Dangerous life form here stay away” and given orders to retrieve it.
If the order had something about the alien lifecycle or a specific warning about how to contain the alien I’d have to agree that they had some type of outside knowledge about it. As it stands I still think they didn’t know what they were getting into they just naturally wanted it for study and potential profit.
Ummm…those orders were given on an oncoming basis. He wasn’t sent out with the crew with the knowledge they were going to find the thing on the way back, he was issued those orders after they came into contact with the xenomorph.
I just spent the past week before Christmas watching every Alien movie with the commentary, and even before that, I knew a lot about the storyline and such. Darkhold’s assessment is more correct. The Company picked up the beacon and sent the closest available ship to go check it out because, if someone else got there, they wouldn’t be able to make claim to any scavange located on the planet…and seeing as how, up until that point, Earth had had no contact with intelligent alien life forms, a discovery like that was a HUGE financial gain. It wasn’t until after contact with the xenomorph and things started hitting the fan that Ash was given orders to make sure the creature got back at all cost to the crew.
For fuck’s sake, Evil Death, - if you’re going to argue that someone’s claim is lacking all the facts, it’s good to have some knowledge of your own on the subject matter. If you examine it, the whole conspiracy theory about the company doesn’t hold water.
The question is, which future governors are going to star in it?
Gary Coleman?
I suppose that’s possible, but leaving aside the three-week round trip in sending a message from LV-426 to Earth and back (but only because it was mentioned in Aliens, not Alien) there are several very solid reasons to believe that it isn’t the case. Read on.
**
You should have paid closer attention, then, because there are a lot of things that make no sense.
**
Then why did they switch the Nostromo’s regular science officer for Ash immediately before the out trip? Also, we know for an absolute fact that Ash is going around behind everyone else’s back because he receives an order from Mother without anyone ever knowing he’d been there until Ripley found the evidence afterwards.
**
Bullshit.
Ash had been in the bubble since the start of the away mission. When Kane arrived with the facehugger attached and Ripley refused to open the airlock, Ash went straight down to do it himself in violation of quarantine regulations. The only reason Ash could have for doing this is Special Order 937 - and since he could only have received that order by visiting Mother, that means he had his order to acquire a xenomorph before anyone on board the Nostromo could have known what was in the alien ship.
Then you have to ask why the order was Science Officer’s Eyes Only and why the rest of the crew were made expendable. Why not simply order Dallas to put Kane into hypersleep immediately, facehugger and all? That would be the best course of action - if you didn’t know what the facehugger was doing. They also must have expected Ash to survive because he was an android, which suggests that the Company knew something of the creature’s capabilities.
Why didn’t the Company try again? The simple answer is that they’d already lost $42m plus payload with the Nostromo and since as far as they knew Ash had not sufficed to handle a xenomorph, they didn’t think they had any workable method to retrieve one and so would only be throwing good money after bad if they tried.
In Aliens, Ripley asks how soon they can expect a rescue after they’re declared overdue. Cpl Hicks replies “seventeen days”. PFC Hudson goes on his tirade how they won’t last seventeen hours, et cetera.
That seems to imply boots-on-the-ground rescuers in 2.5 weeks from that moment, which lends credence to the possibility of FTL communications, and thus could explain how Ash could receive instructions enroute.
(Of course, this could be dismissed by saying that communications technology improved remarkably in the 57 years between the two movies.)
Bear in mind that the military would have state-of-the-art communications equipment and the Nostromo would not. There’s no need to fanwank about improved technology.
That only tells us how close the nearest Marine base is. Since they’re Colonial Marines, that suggests they aren’t all based on Earth. If they had instantaneous transmission, you would have to assume that there are no Colonial Marines anywhere except on Earth and that the Sulaco is barely faster than a sixty-year-old lifeboat.
However, we do have a series of facts that help us construct a rough timeline of events:
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Burke sent the order to Acheron - probably straight after Ripley’s hearing, to ensure nobody else grabbed the profits and to show initiative to his superiors.
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Lydecker sent out the Jordens right away because you don’t question orders from Earth - it takes two weeks to get a reply.
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The Sulaco wasn’t sent out until after communications from Acheron stopped - that is, when the aliens captured Operations.
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The journey from Earth to Acheron takes less than three weeks. (Ripley says in her final report in Alien that the Narcissus would take that long to reach the core systems from Acheron; presumably the Sulaco is much faster than an emergency lifeboat.)
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Burke comments that he’s read Ripley’s psychiatric evaluations, plural. Since Ripley says that she has one evaluation a month, that means it’s been at least that long since the hearing even if she had her first evaluation right after it. That’s a month past the message being sent before the Sulaco sets off as an absolute minimum.
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It takes 24 hours (roughly) for a xenomorph to gestate and birth, followed by less than a day to grow to adulthood.
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The colonists had time to do medical research between the first chestburst and being wiped out.
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At some point, probably very early on, the aliens made a queen egg. (I don’t think it likely that Russ Jorden was implanted with a queen - queen eggs have to be made.)
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It takes two days in a truck to reach the alien ship from Hadley’s Hope. Let’s assume it takes an alien four days.
My best judgement from this is that the time between Burke’s message being received and the cessation of transmissions from Acheron is 17-21 days; 11 for the Queen to start producing eggs under the processing station. They allowed some time before sending out the Sulaco in case it was just equipment failure, but even if they allowed a week that still only comes to 28 days total. Given that we know it has been at least a month since the hearing, probably more, that gives a minimum of 24 hour communication lag each way between Acheron and Earth - and makes it impossible for Ash to have received his orders after Kane was brought aboard.
The seventeen days wasn’t travel time, it was standard rescue protocol. After they don’t hear from the group for seventeen days, then rescue comes. It seems like it doesn’t take very long for them to get from Earth to LV-426 by the time Aliens comes out (maybe a week from the time they lose contact with the colony to the time they set down), but it did take Ripley about 57 years, so I’m not really sure.
As for the conspiracy theory and it’s holes: Again, the company needed to send the closest unit to get to LV-426 before any other organization got there. They couldn’t afford to wait, pick a ship, supplant a spy for the expressed purpose of collecting a specimen. If they were going to waste that much time, they would have sent a proper collecting unit out to get it, not some mining transport with no weapons or real way to hold a specimen, especially an agressively violent one.
The transmission was a warning signal, but warning about what? I doubt there were any specifications in it as to what kind of danger were on the planet, so how would they know what specifically they were going after? They couldn’t. For all they knew, the danger could have been from a terribly violent atmosphere that didn’t agree with whatever being sent the message. Even if they did know specifics about the creature in advance, again, they would have wanted to send a proper unit out to get it, not a bunch of screwballs and one droid.
As for why Ash let them in…he’s program to protect life. Bishop pretty much admits the same, and also shows it in the scene where he’s given a gun and passes it off. Androids are programed to preserve life, not take it. Call says the same thing in **Ressurrection]/b]. Androids are programmed to preserve life. She’s been able to override her programing enough to attempt to kill Ripley for the protection of the human species, but she’s still adamant about protecting everyone else, including an incubator, all because “I’m programed to.” Thus, when faced with the potential danger to a crew member, Ash let them in in order to help save a life. Same reason he didn’t want them to kill the alien when he it first sprouted (as well as his programing to bring it back). His program confilcts over preserving the crew, but also being told to let them all die in order to preserve the alien, are part of what caused his malfunction and caused him to attack Ripley. That, and apparently a lot of pent up sexual frustration.
Also, all they found on the planet were eggs. They couldn’t have known what the alien lifecycle would have entailed, and Ash knew in advance that Kane was implanted with a small xenomorph (there’s a scene where Ripley confronts him about letting them in, and in the monitor, Ash is viewing the embryonic xenomorph fetus). If all information was known about the species in advance, Ash would have known to freeze Kane immediately, because he would have known what was going to happen next and when the chest burster was going to come to maturity. Therefore, he would have stopped it in advance so everything could be observed in a proper science facility…not let it run amock on the ship.
Also, if they already had all the information about what was down on the planet before they sent the crew of the Nostromo, why the hell did they not send anyone else to explore the derilect until after Ripley came back and reported what she found 57 years later? And why send surveyors, and not a proper science/collective team? If they knew it was there, and what was in it, then they would have sent someone else after the Nostromo, also out of fear that someone else might get there first.
Ash was a plant, yes. It was a late addition to the original script as well, which is another big reason the conspiracy angle doesn’t hold water. The crews reaction also seemed to indicate that this was their first encounter with an android, so it’s quite possible Ash was part of a bigger plan of the company to supplant spies on board to keep track of crew behavior for a variety of purposes (not making claims on salvage, selling materials for profit, etc. etc.). The fact that they were sent to LV-426 is just big, bad luck on their part, and in no way a huge conspiracy to by the company.
And even if the xenomorphs had been on Earth in the present day, the company isn’t around, and that’s a long time to keep information like that a secret, even if they were. Why they would hold out for so long hoping for the chance that, “one of these days” they’d find them again in space and not on earth, is a big stretch.
From my understanding of the plot to Alien vs. Predator, the xenomorph eggs are already on the planet. They’d been set there lord knows how long ago, and the predators show up when they start to hatch. The predators don’t bring them with them, like they do in the comics, they planted them earlier. I don’t know how long xenomorph eggs and face huggers live, but even frozen in the antarchtic, I doubt it’s that insanely long (although, it’s apparently at least 57 years). Again, supposedly the predators have been doing this for an incredibly long time in Earth’s history.
It would be interesting to see a penguin xenomorph, I would think. It’ll be interesting to see this movie, too, but I still don’t think it’s going to be that good. FUn, maybe, but not good.
Well, the message wasn’t about to read “Bring back ultimate killing machine alien life form with a head shaped like a sex aid”, was it?
As Ash was put on board before they left Earth, it’s not too great a stretch to believe that the Company had just found and translated the warning, realised it was what they knew about from Before, and gave Ash all the knowledge they had about it ahead of time.
stupid bolding…
Hey, everyone, relax.
Throughout this entire thread, no one has mentioned any of the highly successful and most excellent Alien Vs. Predator graphic novels, IIRC, from Darkhorse Comics.
That is where this movie is springing from, not some Godzilla Vs. King Kong or Freddie Vs. Jason marketing crap. This is a valid and strong story with a documented past. It’s been a while since I read one, but if memory serves, these books have been out for atleast a decade.
But fanwanking is so fun! fap fap fap fap fap
Remember that Burke says that Ripley drifted through the core systems and a deep space salvage team found her.
Also, just to throw another wrench into the seventeen-days issue, Hicks says that it’ll take that long after they’re declared overdue to expect the rescue. It’s left vague as to just when they will be considered overdue.
That still doesn’t instill me with much confidence. Movies made from comic books, graphic novels, computer games and other such sources haven’t been exactly the top of their genre. (With a few exceptions, of course.)
the truly amusing thing is I bet nobody that wrote the script even thought about the angles we’re trying for here. Anyway if Ash knew why wasn’t he better prepared? He doesn’t figure a way out to collect an egg without a face hugger getting loose. He doesn’t freeze the crew member like he should (as El Elvis Rojo pointed out) he doesn’t even keep him in the medical lab so he could try to contain the chest burster while it was small (instead he takes the guy to dinner so everyone can watch it come out making it very likely they’d try to hunt and kill it) and if he did let all the crew get killed (and presumably the alien would destroy him as a matter of course) there’s a chance the company too would have a hard time containing it and the 3-4 aliens that have been birthed from the crew.
IN short none of this seems to point to he had any prior knowledge of what this thing exactly was.
heh I didn’t know we were getting upset.
the problem is there doesn’t’ seem to be much connection to the comics. This seems like a totally new angle on the story. I did read a script a long time ago supposedly based off the comics it took place on a colony in the future. NOT in Antarctica during modern day.
He said they should have filed a mission report the daty before, and that it would be seventeen days from that night when they should expect a rescue.
You know, Darkhold, it’s rare that I get to refute every single thing somebody says in a post - but I’m going to now.
<deep breath>
Firstly, they don’t need a live egg because all an egg produces is a single facehugger; bringing one back is irrelevant. They will probably also have leftover egg cases from the events of AvP, though of course they don’t have a live egg.
Secondly, the Company would want a detailed analysis of the life cycle from start to finish and in natural conditions. They’ll know about the warriors, of course, and they may know something of the other stages, but they’d want to know exactly how long each stage takes to complete and whether or not a facehugger can be removed after latching on. These are the sort of things they would not be likely to discover in a brief, violent encounter, and Ash investigates all of them. Watch the breakfast scene before Kane dies - Ash looks like he’s taking mental notes, most likely because he is.
Thirdly, if the crew were going to hunt and kill the chestburster after it bursts out in the mess they’d be just as likely to kill it if it bursts out in Medical - except in Medical they’d be likely to succeed, as Medical is a sealed environment that it can’t escape from. Keeping Kane in Medical would practically ensure that Ash didn’t get an adult specimen.
Fourthly, Ash knows there’s no chance of the crew being able to kill it, because as science officer they’ll turn to him to provide a means of doing so. He can then provide means inadequate to the task.
Finally, there’s no issue of multiple xenomorphs because they only grow from implantation. Even assuming the Nostromo doesn’t take off or that a warrior can lay eggs, once he has his live specimen Ash can simply kill any other facehugged crewman while they’re comatose. He doesn’t even have to do anything suspicious - he can simply have the 'hugger strangle its victim as he “tries to remove it”.
“In short”, all this points to is that the Company have some knowledge of the xenomorphs, but not complete knowledge.
Evil Death,
Woah. Stretch much?
Your first and second points are in conflict. You say they don’t care about a live egg (why you assume that is beyond me) secondly you say they’d like to see it in it’s lifecycle in natural conditions. How is a company ship where it runs amok a natural condition? It would be much better to observe the lifecycle in a lab setting. Which means grab an egg put it in stasis and take it home. They could then set up whatever they wished for natural conditions. Letting it run around a valuable ship destroying’s makes no sense from a scientific perspective or from a business perspective.
You third point is debatable. But don’t you think “yeah he killed a crew member but I have it locked in this lab where I’m going to freeze it for study” Makes more sense then "Holy crap it’s loose and growing. Better take this pointy stick and go after it.
Fourth point. Erm how did they ‘know’ they’d turn to him? They had very few weapons. The flame thrower was going to occur to somebody. It’s not like they had hordes of auto guns laying around he talked them out of.
In the extended version the alien can transform bio matter into spare eggs. So for every 2 crewmemebers = one extra morph (at least). You think the Alien wouldn’t’ kill Ash as he killed off facehugged crewmembers? This might be possible if he had a way to contain the alien and feed it crewmembers. But that wouldn’t be possible with the letting it loose in the mess hall scenario you propose.
And just as a side note why didn’t the company continue to check out LV after Alien if they knew what was going on? They even had a colony there and never bothered to tell anyone to check it out until Ripely came back. It’s not like it would have taken much resources to have someone jump into a land crawler and see.
This all still points to they having nearly Zero knowledge of what they were getting. You need a smoking gun to prove your point and it’s not in the movies as is.
[Bill Shatner mode]
Get a life, will you people…
[/Bill Shatner mode]
Tremors was a fantastic film (the sequels were all absolute garbage). Know why? Because it was produced by Gale Ann Hurd, the same woman who produced Aliens.
As far as AvP goes, who knows. The director has a really shakey resumé. The basic plot sounds ok. The 6 films already made are such a mixed bag:[ul][li]Alien - A simple, subtle, low-key masterpiece[/li][li]Aliens - The greatest action film ever made[/li][li]Alien³ - A dark, flawed but still well made suspense/action movie[/li][li]Alien Resurrection - A ridiculous, embarrasing, worthless piece of shit[/li][li]Predator - A great idea, a silly (but still entertaining) Schwarzenegger popcorn movie[/li]Predator 2 - A jumbled, derivative, and generally confusing mess of a movie[/ul]My guess is AvP will fall about in the middle…
I just watched the scene in which Ripley re-activates Ash after he gets his block knocked off, so to speak. Even the remaining crew suspected that the Company knew what they were sending the crew up against (and that the Company wanted the alien for the Weapons Research division), and Ash certainly didn’t dissuade them from such a notion. He mentions that they could not kill it, that it was a perfect organism, etc., etc. Sounds to me like he knew what they were up against, at least in a vague sense. He did study it in the medlab, and the Company wanted it for study as well, indicating that they knew something up front about its potential but did not have all the details.
Whoa, hold on.
First, did Ash even know that the xenomorph had laid an egg inside of Kane? As far as Ash knew (as well as the rest of the crew), the xenomorph detached itself from Kane’s face and died. End of story.
There was no indication that an egg had been laid in Kane’s chest. So, when Kane awoke, the crew had no reason to suspect that anything was going to happen to him (at least not an alien exploding out of his chest).
And, as far as Ash inviting Kane to dinner, I don’t think it was all Ash’s volition. That way I see it, since Kane was awake and appeared healthy, it was a mutual decision among the crew to invite him. (After all, they know nothing of an alien incubating in his chest.)