That, of course, being the reason we’d all like to see it.
BTW, if anyone is a chestburster candidate, it’s (Ensign?) Barkley.
Are you kidding? The USCM are considered to be the best fighting force ever seen in any sci-fi film, ever. Star Trek’s pajama-wearing losers aren’t even in the same league.
“Just machineguns and grenades”? I’m sorry, but if anything, Phasers are inferior weapons. They make nice big booms on full power, yes, but they are horribly inaccurate, have horrible refire rates, and are terrible for battlefield conditions. ST guys have no armor, no sensors aside from their tricorders (which only tell you what general direction a target might be, and they’re so inconsistent that I can’t see them being of any use).
No amount of spiffy, shiny, Dustbuster-wannabe hi-tech weaponry will compensate for the fact that Federation troops have just about no training and no combat or tactical sense to speak of. If a swarm of Aliens were to get on the Enterprise (or Voyager, God willing), they’d eliminate the crew in under a day with minimal losses. Barring some sort of cheesy, Q-related deus ex machina, of course.
Perhaps, but they’d be bound to show up in x-ray, or radar, or sonar, or neutrinos, or tachyons, or fliberon particles. Geordi’s visor is apparently capable of detecting every form of radiation in the known and unknown universe, with the exception of electromagnetic waves between 400 and 700 nanometers.
Um…yeah. That’s great news. At least Jordi will be able to see what what eats him.
I hate to be greedy, msmith537, but … MORE
your startreck meets aliens encounters are hilarious, my co workers here think i’m goin crazy laughing in 5 second intervals:D
Considered by whom? I was not impressed with them. They were bad at following orders and panicked easily. Their bad situation was due in part to their many mistakes.
Sci-fi nerds. Check out Spacebattles.com.
Panicked “easily”? I’m sorry, they only panicked when they started taking significant losses and didn’t know what was attacking them. And even AFTER a momentary panic, they managed to reform and make an organized retreat.
No, their bad situation was due ENTIRELY to Gorman’s mistakes. He WAS green, remember? He had no idea what he was doing. And all the other marines recognized this. And they STILL followed his orders (so much for your “didn’t follow orders” idea :D), like good soldiers should.
It was after the whole operation went FUBAR that they decided to act out on their own… and that’s when things started going (relatively) good for them.
They were ordered not to use the pulse rifles under the reactor. Many of them violated orders, which resulted in the destruction of the entire installation. And since Gorman was a part of their unit, his weaknesses are weaknesses of the USCM - a fighting force is more than just it’s grunts, it’s leadership is just as important, if not more so. The fact that Gorman was able to have a leadership position is a serious flaw for the USCM.
Granted the competition is generally pretty poor, but they had decent weapons (ie ones similar and a bit better to today’s rather than fancy energy ones that actually aren’t much use), they were willing to fight, their tactics were acceptable (given the limitations of the situation), and apart from their green Lieutenant (most likely selected because he was green, and could be influenced by Burke), and Hudson getting jumpy, they kept control even after watching half their squad wiped out, and then being mobbed by aliens. Feel free to give your example of better SF soldiers.
Besides, we’re comparing them to Starfleet. They’re well on the way to the worst ground troops in Sci-fi.
Nerds? Us? Surely not.
On preview:
2 of them took along extra mags, if they hadn’t done so odds are they’d never have got out. The colony was a loss anyway, and that sterilised the hive (otherwise they’d have nuked the site from orbit. It was the only way to be sure.). They’re controlled by the company, hence Burke and Gorman (as I said above), just as modern armies are influenced by political decisions that amy reduce their effectiveness in the field.
Arguing that not following bad orders makes them bad soldiers is somewhat harsh if you then criticise them for having someone giving bad orders.
Saying their orders were ‘bad’ is subjective. The people they work for were not wanting to destroy the colony and wipe out the aliens, yet they disobeyed orders and as a result their mission was a complete failure. An analogy would be if we sent in a team of soldiers to capture a facility full of terrorists, with orders to take as many alive as possible and to make sure the facility was undamaged so that investigators could go through later for evidence, and the soldiers instead slaughtered everyone there and burned the facility to the ground. They may have been effective at what they did, but they did not achieve their goals and therefore were BAD SOLDIERS. Also, they were not disobeying orders because they disagreed with the corporations plans to bring back samples of the aliens, they disobeyed orders because they felt that doing things the way they were ordered was too dangerous, their motivation was self-preservation, not some kind of moral superiority over their commanders.
Yes and no. There were two authorities there, the Corporation and the USCM. The general consensus is that the USCM was blissfully unaware of the Corporation’s intent to retrieve samples for study. Burke was never in command, but could influence Gorman in certain ways. Once Gorman was incapacitated and Apone was taken … you see where I’m going with this. “This operation is under military jurisdiction and Hicks is next in chain of command. Am I right, corporal?” I’d use that as a good example, not a bad one. The mission was fubared and Hicks made a command decision to evacuate.
Seems to me the USCM were screwed one way or the other. Either Vasquez and Drake replace the batteries on their smartguns, saving the group and possibly (The movie doesn’t make the cause clear, could be them, could be an alien shredding something trying to kill the power) destroying the whole complex, or they use only flamers and everyone almost surely dies (Gorman couldn’t lead his way out of the APC, much less off the planet, and even if Ripley took over they’re much worse outnumbered than before…).
I think they did about as well as they could, considering the situation. What do you think they could have (reasonably) done differently?
They should have pulled out immediately once they knew they were in an untenable position (I mean, two or three flamers and an antique shotgun against the xenomorphs that Ripley had described to all of them? Get serious) and gone back to the APC. Work out a new gameplan, issue some less-damaging ammo – surely they have some “soft-nosed” slugs that are high-impact, low-penetration, perfect for crowd control. I think today’s armed forces have selective ordnance, I can’t believe that a century or two down the road the Marines have no choice in ammunition. High-velocity armor-piercing shells cannot be the solution to everything.
As for the Star Trek scenario…if I were the Federation CO, I wouldn’t necessary send my guys in first. I’d ask for help from my good friends and allies, the Klingons…
“Ah, good, Commander Kolock, you’re here. Down this tunnel are some very nasty aliens, real mean BAMF’s, they’ve got acid for blood, incredibly strong, they can…uh, Commander? Hey, Kolock! I haven’t finished, you and your men…don’t you want the full…okay, they usually hide in ceiling cracks, keep a sharp eye out…okay, we’ll wait here for your signal. Yeah, seeya in a bit.”
After about five minutes, go in and mop up. The Klingons will probably take heavy losses, but they live for that stuff. The remaining xenomorphs will be easy to take down with a few phaser shots.
Bloodwine all around, bartender.
To be fair, however, they were not equipped properly for the mission in the first place because they were not given an proper briefing. Nobody really believed Ripley until it was too late, and Gorman was likely issued as much for this reason as for the ulterior motives of the company. Gorman also didn’t state the reason for his flamers-only order, which might have made things easier, though I agree that once they got that order they should have pulled back and rethought their stratagy.
I’m just picturing Geordi La Forge looking past an alien while tapping his VISOR. “Maybe they don’t show up in infrared at all–BWAAAUGHHHH!!!”
If the colonial marines were to spend some time with the Star Trek crew, maybe the Trekkers would finally learn to curse, as all navy people should.
[ul]
[li]“He’s fucking dead, Jim! We’re ALL fuckin’ dead!”[/li][li]“I said ENGAGE, goddammit!”[/li][li]“Screw the Prophets. Let’s get some Promenade poontang.”[/li][li]“Seven of Nine? Well, let me show you seven of MINE. Owoo!” (followed by snappy Marine handshake)[/li][/ul]
I can’t believe I’m going to do this. Note that I’m not disagreeing, just elaborating.
There were nine marines in the first encounter. I’ll list their weaponry and then curl up in the corner and pretend I have a real life.[ul][]Apone - took a flamethrower from Frost when the chestburster appeared.[]Hicks - his antique shotgun.[]Dietrich - flamer. She’s the one who triggered it when grabbed and killed Frost.[]Wierzbowski - flamethrower as well. He’s not seen firing it in the movie, but is seen carrying it.[]Hudson, Crowe, Frost - pistols.[]Vasquez, Drake - smartguns, albeit in violation of orders. Drake’s backup weapon was a flamer, which he used when he ran out of ammo.[/ul]When they were told to sling their rifles, they were still reasonably equipped enough to find the colonists. Recall that they hadn’t found the hive yet, and as far as they knew there were just a whole bunch of Personal Data Transmitters down there. After the chestburster appeared and Hudson picked up movement, and Ripley told Gorman to pull his team out … that was a good time to withdraw and reconsider their options.
:eek:~[sup]AAAAAAAH![/sup]
Sorry, but…
ARE YOU F**KING KIDDING ME?!?!
Okay, picture this: surviving aliens manage to incapacitate one or two Klingons.
What do they do?
They drag Klinzhai’s finest back to the nest, cocoon them (“just like the others”), surround them with eggs and wait for the inevitable.
And remember what the inevitable is? Sometime later you get a chestburstin’ warrior alien who exhibits characteristics of whatever lifeform was its host.
You’re talking about a xenomorph with Klingon characteristics, fakhrysaqes! That’s what I call a true “Nightmare Scenario”.
And as for the debate here of the propriety of the Marines’ actions, remember: As far as they (the grunts) knew, this was “just another bug hunt”. A toss-off job. They weren’t taking it seriously right up until “Maybe they don’t show up on infrared at all…”
Okay, now I’m picturing a whole 'nother nightmare scenario:
The Borg are actually successful in assimilating the aliens.
Can’t you imagine what a first-class engine of destruction that would be? The end result would be like the ultimate dream-machine for Saberhagen’s Berserkers… shiver
All this goes towards my theory that ALIENS is in fact a Vietnam War allegory. Consider:
- Nobody really knows what the objective is.
- The troops enter completely unprepared.
- The officers are inexperienced and completely disconnected from the troops.
- the chain of command does not work.
- The Powers that Be have ulterior motives and keep throwing monkey wrenches into the works.
- The enemy is cruel, efficiant, stealthy and in complete control of the terrain.
- Furthermore, the troops fatally underestimate the enemy, in terms of numbers, intelligence and ferocity.
- Everything goes to hell, and before long the only things the soldiers care about is getting out alive.
Any takers?
That is overly simplistic. Without a doubt, the attitudes toward the military shown in the Alien Movies are influenced by the post-vietnam attitudes toward the military. (A bunch of arrogant bafoons getting in over there heads) Except in the Alien movies the attitude is used to challenge something way more powerful than N Vietnam, the unknown mysteries waiting to butt rape us all.