Is any one pitcher considered the GOAT, ala Babe Ruth? Walter Johnson? Cy Young? Tom Seaver? Feel free to espouse your opinion, but I’m really asking if there is one that is sort of the consensus.
I don’t think there’s a real consensus. If you look at career WAR, both varieties have Young, W. Johnson, and Roger Clemens at the top, though in somewhat different orders. I think there’s probably a tendency to diminish Young’s standing a little because he was so early on, but the award IS named after him…
But I suspect you’d find at least as many people who favored Seaver or Randy Johnson or Maddux as Clemens, and a decent number who’d say Mathewson along with or before Walter. And people disagree, sometimes vehemently, about how to balance things across very different eras.
If pressed, I’d probably say Walter Johnson. But that’s an opinion that I wouldn’t expect everybody else to share.
The first name that popped into my head without consulting any stats was Christy Mathewson, with Walter Johnson and Cy Young right behind him, but guys like Roger Clemroid and Greg Maddux from the modern era would have to be in that conversation. Looking at WAR at Baseball Reference, I see that Young is listed as way out on top ahead of Johnson. Of those two, I see that Johnson is fifth in adjusted ERA while Young is way down at 17th in that category.
I’m not sure there’s a definitive way to name a greatest pitcher that is clearly and unarguably the GOAT the way you can definitively say that Babe Ruth was the best overall player ever.
It can’t be any pitcher who played before integration of the league
Definitely not a consensus. A lot of people look at longevity & great performance to determine GOAT, where Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, would figure; but if you are look at the greatest peak performance, IMO, it is impossible to beat Pedro Martinez (seriously, Koufax has nothing on Martinez’s run from 1997 to 2003).
People will have very different opinions as to which pitcher had the best overall career, but I think that for the few years that Pedro Martinez was at his peak, he was the best pitcher ever.
If I had to pick one guy to have on my team for 15 or 20 years, though, I’d lean toward either Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove or Roger Clemens. And since I usually give more modern players the benefit of the doubt, I guess Clemens wins. He’s stil la jerk, though.
I’d have to say Clemens, leaving aside the roids claim.
Great through Pedro was, Clemens was as good in his best years, and in terms of value I can name pitchers with equal peaks to Pedro. Pedro usually missed a few starts every year and you cannot help win a game you don’t start. Best 5 years according to WAR in B-Reference:
Clemens
11.9
10.6
9.4
8.9
8.8
Pedro:
11.7
9.7
9.0
8.0
7.2
Clemens’s best, second-best, all the way to any-best season are all better.
Let’s look at Randy Johnson:
10.9
10.0
9.2
8.6
8.5
As good a peak, really, as Pedro. Inning for inning he was as good as any starter, but he did not pitch enough innings to truly be the greatest.
I dug out my copy of Bill James’ New Baseball Extract (2001) because I didn’t recall who he listed. He has Walter Johnson.