All black people are not African American.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Contrapuntual

The graph was in response for a request that ALL sodas are called “coke.” 12.38% is a far cry from all, even if the graph only represented the South.

@carterba

It’s just like how all sodas are called “Coke” in certain Southern dialects.

(bolding mine)

Perhaps it would be best if you took notes during arguments in future. That way you’ll remember just what it was you were arguing about to begin with, which may keep you from looking very silly indeed in a thread like… this one.

Count me in with the group that says that any professional broadcaster who doesn’t bother to think before he opens his mouth deserves a good hard slapping.

[Frank]

@Indistinguishable

12.38% represented the entire country. Therefore, the percentage of the South it represented may well have been much closer to 100%, especially if we limited our focus to, say, the area around Atlanta.

Leaving completely aside the poll, if I sit down in a restaurant, and they ask me what kind of Coke I want, I can answer Root Beer?

[Darryl_Lict]

The lead article in the London Times coverage of the race never uses any terms for Hamilton’s ethnicity. It only compares him to Tiger Woods.

The accompanying article states (bolding mine):

Hamilton has been compared with Tiger Woods, but for all the wrong reasons. Many have suggested that his ethnicity — he was the first driver of black heritage to win a grand prix — will inspire a new generation of young black drivers to enter the Formula One paddock in the same way that Woods has transformed the demographics of professional golf.

So, I guess to appeal to the majority, we could use Englishman of half sub-saharan African descent.

[Contrapuntal]

@tomndebb

You were lamenting that the denial of a word to a particular group was inhospitable. I just wondered if you had actually seen anyone suffer for such inhospitality.

OK. Ya got me. “Inhospitable” was ironic.

You are the one assigning a different meaning to a phrase that has been current in American English for close to twenty years and insisting on your right to assign it in a different usage.
The role of Hunpty Dumpty, in tonight’s performance, will be played by Contrapuntal.

Again, it has been drilled into me that words mean whatever anyone wants them to mean, including that anyone who self identifies as African-American, is African-American. I will gladly enlist you as my champion the next time I fling myself against that wall.

Do you watch the NBA? Tim Duncan, a native of the Virgin Islands, is considered to be an African-American. How does this jibe with your assertion that one needs to be a descendant of slaves? Or the fact that to be considered African-American for government purposes one only needs to be black? The phrase is much less clear cut than you seem to be asserting.

@Indistinguishable

12.38% represented the entire country. Therefore, the percentage of the South it represented may well have been much closer to 100%, especially if we limited our focus to, say, the area around Atlanta.

See, tom, that’s what I mean, only with statistics taking the place of semantics. A simple request for a citation that “coke” ALWAYS is used in place of soda has been answered with a graph that puts it at 12.38 %, with the caveat it **may **be **close **to 100% if you get to ignore the fact that the USA != Atlanta. Words mean what one wants them to.

[Contrapuntal]

@Really Not All That Bright

Perhaps it would be best if you took notes during arguments in future. That way you’ll remember just what it was you were arguing about to begin with, which may keep you from looking very silly indeed in a thread like… this one.

Does it appear to that the graphs provided satisfied that request for a cite? Even if it did, 12% is not 100%.

Do you see anything at all about dialects there? I can only work with what they give me.

[elmwood]

@Nametag

A white South African living in America is a South African, and not American in any way, shape or form. A white South African who becomes an American citizen is a European-American, just like all the rest of us Americans of Euro-fucking-pean descent. White South Africans ARE NOT ETHNICALLY AFRICAN!!!

The South African expats I’ve met in the US just call themselves “South African expats.” They don’t make a distinction between being an English South African or an Afrikaaner South African.

For groups from English-speaking, countries where the lifestyle, culture and built environment really isn’t too much different than the US, hyphenation just strikes me as being kind of odd. Canadian-American, South African-American, New Zealander-American, Australian-American … might as well add “Calfornian-American” or “Texan-American” as long as we’re at it.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Contrapuntal

Does it appear to that the graphs provided satisfied that request for a cite? Even if it did, 12% is not 100%.

Do you see anything at all about dialects there? I can only work with what they give me.

Oh dear.

Look, the original assertion was that in certain Southern dialects, the term for “soda” is “coke”. Not “all Southern dialects refer to “soda” as “coke””.

“All” would require 100%. But he didn’t f**king say “all”, he said “certain”.

The map shows that 12% of Southern respondents indicated that “coke” is their preferred term for “soda”. This indicates that in some number of dialects almost entirely confined to the South, spoken by approximately 12% of those polled therein, COKE IS THE WORD GENERALLY USED TO DESCRIBE A NONSPECIFIC CARBONATED BEVERAGE.

[Indistinguishable]

@Really Not All That Bright

The map shows that 12% of Southern respondents indicated that “coke” is their preferred term for “soda”. This indicates that in some number of dialects almost entirely confined to the South, spoken by approximately 12% of those polled therein, COKE IS THE WORD GENERALLY USED TO DESCRIBE A NONSPECIFIC CARBONATED BEVERAGE.

It’s better than that. The 12% number was out of the entire country. The percentage in the South is much higher.

[tomndebb]

@Contrapuntal

Do you watch the NBA? Tim Duncan, a native of the Virgin Islands, is considered to be an African-American. How does this jibe with your assertion that one needs to be a descendant of slaves? Or the fact that to be considered African-American for government purposes one only needs to be black? The phrase is much less clear cut than you seem to be asserting.

How to respond to this? Oh! I know:

@tomndebb

Exceptions have exceptions, of course. There is currently a low-grade controversy over whether a person of primarily African ancestry whose immediate ancestors (or self) immigrated from a location populated by slaves (e.g., theCaribbean basin), should be known as “African-American” or (for example) “Jamaican-American.” The argument for the latter is that their ancestors were not brought to the U.S. as slaves and that they have a national identity available to them. The argument for the former is that the typical racist in the U.S. would make no distinctions and that they should be allowed under the umbrella of the continent descriptor for reasons of solidarity and support from the existing population.

Did Mr. Duncan’s parents remove to the V.I. directly from Namibia or somewhere? Or, is it rather more likely that his ancestors were imported to the Caribbean basin as slaves from Africa?

However, sloppily the term “African-American” gets bandied about, it clearly has not ever been used in any seriousness to indicate a white immigrant from South Africa or Egypt or Libya to the U.S.

I have no problem with anyone challenging the usage as less than perfect. I have noted on many occasions several of its flaws and have noted in this very thread that I do not use it. I simply consider the claim that Charlize Theron should be “allowed” to identify herself as “African American” to be merely stupid, making no serious point and providing no serious objection to the flawed usage.

[tomndebb]

@elmwood

… might as well add “Calfornian-American” or “Texan-American” as long as we’re at it.

Well, if we’re talking about foreigners who are not REALLY American. . . .

[Roland_Orzabal]

@Frank

Leaving completely aside the poll, if I sit down in a restaurant, and they ask me what kind of Coke I want, I can answer Root Beer?

Generally, no. Speaking from personal experience, though, the directive “grab me a coke” should, depending on who’s saying it, prompt a response of “what kind?”, to which the subsequent response might very well be “root beer”.

In each of these cases, the original speaker would be taken aback at the notion that their original statement was at odds with what they actually wanted, and, also in each case, the original speaker was of southern U.S. origin.

This, again, comes from my personal experience with perhaps five people whom I have personally encountered. I would posit it unlikely that I have encountered the five strangest people from the southern U.S. Take from this what you will.

[Argent_Towers]

I think the bottom line is that racial/ethnic descriptors can’t be expected to adhere to any kind of hard and fast linguistic rules. “African-American” is understood to mean black, not white people from South Africa, and that’s all there is to it and it’s not going to change.

[Monty]

ESPN is good (or so I hear) at covering some sports. Doing something that’s new to them, though, has backfired on more than one occasion. I remember back in the 80s (yes, the 1980s, whippersnapper) when they “covered” the World Cup soccer matches. Three of us were renting an apartment at the time, two Czhecks and I. My two roomies were stunned when I suggested that we should watch the Spanish channel’s broadcast of it. After five minutes of ESPN, they both looked at me and said, “How did you know?”

They can report what’s on the field if they’ve done it time after time after time, but if it’s something new and novel, it’s going to be a total cockup.

Anecdote: While on shore duty in Japan, my LPO who happens to be Jamaican was approached by another Sailor for funds for the African-American club. His mistake in trying to get the LPO to part with her cash was to say, “After all, you are African-American, you should support the club.” She told him, “I’m neither African nor American. Good day.”

[GorillaMan]

@Defective Detective

It’s all bullshit. I’ve never heard an announcer for the Olympics refer to “that African-Englishman” or “that African-Frenchman,” (It’s just an Englishman or a Frenchman), yet we hear “African-American” all the time. A label that denotes the country of origin can be helpful in some situations, but what the fuck does the color of a man’s skin have to do with anything? Never mind, don’t answer, that’s a hijack.

I don’t see it as a hijack, seen as the context of the OP is Lewis Hamilton. If the Olympics had persistently been a white man’s enclave, you can be sure you’d be hearing such descriptions.

@Darryl Lict

The lead article in the London Times coverage of the race never uses any terms for Hamilton’s ethnicity. It only compares him to Tiger Woods.

Bear in mind that this is written primarily for a British audience, who by now are fully aware that he’s the first black F1 driver.

[Roog]

To further complicate things, remember that the paternal grandparents of Lewis Hamilton came to the UK from Grenada. So it would seem that they would have been eligible to be called African-Americans. Maybe that’s what all the sportscasters were thinking about. However, considering the other cases where “African-American” was incorrectly used, probably not.

[Mangetout]

@Nametag

Oh, for fuck’s sake, if I read or hear that bullshit one more time I’m going to explode!

A white South African living in America is a South African, and not American in any way, shape or form. A white South African who becomes an American citizen is a European-American, just like all the rest of us Americans of Euro-fucking-pean descent. White South Africans ARE NOT ETHNICALLY AFRICAN!!!

Most Americans are not ethnically American by the same standard.

[Nava]

@Roog

To further complicate things, remember that the paternal grandparents of Lewis Hamilton came to the UK from Grenada. So it would seem that they would have been eligible to be called African-Americans. Maybe that’s what all the sportscasters were thinking about. However, considering the other cases where “African-American” was incorrectly used, probably not.

I doubt the newscasters were even aware of this. And the first time I heard “african-american” about someone who is definitely not American was English singer Sade, circa '95. Whose mother was milky-white English and her father Nigerian.

It’s an overcorrection, and it’s dumb.

[Sarahfeena]

@tomndebb

Actually, no person I know whose ancestors were sub-Saharan Africans uses any term other than black. The majority of polls I have seen (which shift frequently, based somewhat on demographics and somewhat on how the question is posed) have tended to give a slight preference among the members of that community to “black,” as well. Therefore, I tend to use the word black as shorter, less confusing, less likely to irritate one of the anti-PC offenderatti, and much less likely to irritate my associates.

My experience with black americans is the same as yours…they refer to themselves as “black,” and I also agree with you that it is less confusing. But I was talking more about the media…that is where you hear “African-American” most often, and I think media professionals are afraid to use the term “black.”

[Liberal]

@Indistinguishable

“generic” means “can be used to refer to all soda”, in some sense. And that 12.38% is by and large concentrated in the South; look at the top map in the link you were given.

Yep. Been here a long time. Typical experience:

================================

Waitress: What’ll y’all have to drink?

Southern Gentleman: Tea, please.

Yankee Guest: Bring me some iced tea, but I want it UNsweetened. That’s NOT sweetened. Got it?

Waitress: Okay, Darlin’. I’ll just bring you some sweetener on the side.

Yankee Guest: Sigh.

Southern Lady: Just a coke for me, please.

Waitress: What kind, Sugar? I got Co-cola, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, and Dr. Pepper.

Southern Lady: Pepsi will be fine, please.

Yankee: Jesus, you people are weird.

[…nearby patrons gasp…]

Yankee: What? What?

Southern Lady: You just called out the Lord’s name in vain.

Yankee: Will I get out of here alive?

Southern Gentleman: Possibly. It’d help if you’d pretend to be mute.

[Monty]

@Sarahfeena

My experience with black americans is the same as yours…they refer to themselves as “black,” and I also agree with you that it is less confusing. But I was talking more about the media…that is where you hear “African-American” most often, and I think media professionals are afraid to use the term “black.”

Perhaps their employer has a style guide which they’re required to follow & that guide mandates the use of the term African-American for Americans who happen to be Black?