A UK Navy vessel Captain has agreed to Satanic rites on his ship
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=608290§ion=news
Now I’m a stone cold atheists so it’s meaningless to be from a religious POV but I could see this causing trouble with some crew mates.
What do you think? Should Satanists have freedom to practice their religion openly in these types of situations?
Should atheists in these situations be allowed to say they are atheists?
Yep but atheists don’t usually carry out religious rituals. I’ve seen an interview with this guy saying he now has a place on board where he can carry out what ever mumbo jumbo that blows his skirt up.
My point is that a lot of people would have major issues with his religion and could cause problem thus lowering moral/efficiency etc.
My view is that he should be allowed BTW but I reckon there’s a debate here 
Seems like it would depend on the situation.
If the Satanists were breaking laws or disrupting the ship’s mission, then I doubt they’d be allowed to practice their rites. If they’re just meeting and chanting “All hail our dark lord,” then, if you’ll pardon the expression, why the hell not.
Even in civilian life, in the U.S.,freedom of religion does not generally extend to breaking the law, IIRC. (There are exceptions, again IIRC, like peyote use, though I forget how that case was decided.)
Congress wrote into the Controlled Substances Act an exception for use of peyote by the Native American Church. It seems to me blatantly unconstitutional to make an exception for one specific church. However, this law has never been tested in the courts.
rfgdxm, are you sure about that? I was under the impression that several members of that church have been busted and the government won their appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court. (This may have happened in the '80s and the law might be later.)
On the oher hand, I am not sure that I have a serious problem with making an exception for a specific use of an item that is being outlawed if there is a prior recognized use for that practice that did not seem to present the danger that the law is intending to prevent. (Some sort of accommodation was made for altar wine during Prohibition, so there is precedent.)
As for Satanists, as long as their rites do not include bloody sacrifice or stealing from their crewmates, who cares?
Well, in Christian mythology, Satan is the embodiment of evil and the symbol of opposition to goodness, kindness, justice, mercy, and peace. Satanists themselves may or may not see Satan that way: I understand Anton LeVay-style Satanism is based on (suposedly inteligent) hedonistic anarchism and opposition to all forms of moral opression and authority. Either way, it seems that a “good” Satanist should have political and philosophical beliefs that would make for a very poor fit with the military (so, it could be argued, would a “good” Christian!). As long as the sailor is a “not very good” Satanist (“Yeah, well, I was raised Satanist, but I don’t really go to Coven much now. I just don’t see the point of slaughtering all those babies. I mean, sure it’s a nice ritual, but it just doesn’t speak to me any more.” 
) I don’t see why there should be a problem. What rituals he does on ship isn’t the Navy’s concern, as long as they’re legal and not overly disruptive. (If his religion is based on anarchism, I imagine some of his prayers and rituals might be rather bad for discipline and morale, especially if they’re done publically.)
Some of the Eleven Rules of the Earth might be a problem, depending on how faithfully the Satanist followed them or interpreted them.
But that is neither here nor there, this debate is about the ceremony he performs. My view would be—I dunno. If he can do it without causing a major disruption (do it in private, one would hope) then I guess that’s his right.
Yes.
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/21cfr/cfr/1307/1307_31.htm
"SPECIAL EXEMPT PERSONS
“Section 1307.31 Native American Church.
The listing of peyote as a controlled substance in Schedule I does not apply to the nondrug use of peyote in bona fide religious ceremonies of the Native American Church, and members of the Native American Church so using peyote are exempt from registration. Any person who manufactures peyote for or distributes peyote to the Native American Church, however, is required to obtain registration annually and to comply with all other requirements of law.”
Current law specifically exempts the NAC.
Over at The Church of Satan website, they provide many of their documents in English, French, Spanish, and…Croatian! While I certainly knew about the treacherous French and dread Spaniards, Croats? Sheesh, puts those goat-mask rituals into perspective, let me tell you!
From what little research I’ve done, it looks like Satanist rituals are very similar in form, if not intent, to Wiccan rituals. Those don’t seem to be terribly disruptive, so these might not be a problem either.
(bolding mine) So Congress set up an exclusion for nondrug use for a pre-existing situation, naming the sole church currently using the substance (probably to prevent Joe Dealer from establishing the new Church of Don Juan, San Carlos Castaneda chapter, just to get access to the stuff).
I’m not really excited about it, based on this limited information, but it hardly appears to be a very strong church/state entanglement. I wonder if this law was passed before or after the peyote convictions of the '80s? I know for a fact that in 1990 the Supreme Court upheld the right of the government to interfere with religious practices if the religions were sufficiently outside the mainstream, based on a peyote bust court decision. (Obviously, that is not the lanuage Scalia used in his opinion.)
I used to have a roommate who was a mamber of the Native American Church and participated in peyote rituals. My understanding fro him was that it was legal for use in the rituals but it was extremely tightly controlled. IIRC, it could only be used on Reservations and only for the ritual. It could not be sold or distributed to anyone outside of the Church and they wre extremely wary of anyone who just wanted to “sit in” on a ritual.
I know the latter because I tried. Even though I was a religion student with a sincere in legitimate interest in the practice I was emphatically discouraged. They did not outright say I couldn’t do it but they let it be known I would have to go a pretty damn long way to prove my sincerity becfore it could happen (such as taking a lot of instruction and undergoing a “sweat”).
Even the peyote ritual itself, as my roommate described it to me, did not sound like any kind of a party. It was highly ritualized, involved several hours of ceremony and prayers, and I was guaranteed that I would spend a significant amounrt of time puking my guts out.
I finally decide it wasn’t worth, even though I was ultimately told I could participate if I really, really wanted to.
Yes, I’m pretty sure it was legalized during the first Clinton term, although I don’t remember the exact year.
That “nondrug” use part is a legal fiction, and pure bullshit. The NAC quite obviously uses peyote as a powerful mind altering drug. They merely do so in a religious context.
I suspect that it is a legal fiction. On the other hand, it may be a useful fiction. The claim of people that oppose recreational drug use is that it turns citizens into mind-addled nut cases that present a danger to the public. If used only in a tightly controlled setting where the participants can not hurt either themselves or some random passerby, the argument that drugs present a (potential) harm to society is mitigated. (Priests can become alcoholics and still drive, yet there was no rash of Catholic and Episcopal hit-and-run priest drivers during Prohibition–or since.) Similarly, if the drug is only permitted under tightly controlled situations, random addictions are less likely, so the “nation of addicts” bugaboo is also deflected.
Ever use yourself peyote, or mescaline which is the psychoactive drug in it? I have. Mescaline is by no means addictive. There is of course the possibility some people would do mescaline in an unsafe set and setting, and harm themselves or others. I lack the citation at the moment, but I remember when someone posted on the Usenet drug newsgroups that years ago some Native Americans themselves had condemned the use of peyote because it was causing violent behavior. This was with Native Americans who were just using it to get “fucked up”, and not in a traditional spiritual context.
Well after reading them… these rules seem very reasonable… except being cruel to a guest in your lair that bothers you. The part about not making sexual advances sure is a positive thing to Navy life.
I would warrant that Christians following faithfully the Ten Commandments would disrupt combat operations much more easily with the “thou shalt not murder”…
The military, in a country that has religious freedom, must do all it can to allow all members to participate in whatever religion they choose in whatever fashion is required of that religion as long as it doesn’t break the law or interfere with military duties and as long as it’s sincere. To do otherwise makes the military of that nation a mockery of the very values it is trying to defend.
In the US military, this has been supported with a Supreme Court case that allowed a Jewish doctor to wear the yarmulka indoors contrary to AF regulations (can’t remember the cert, but I remember studying it for a paper in a Constitutional Law course in university).
I also recall when I was in the Air Force, there was a member of another flight in basic training at the same time as me who practiced vodoo. This individual got all accomodation to practice his religion, as long as it was not disruptive of others or of regular duty schedules, and as long as he cleaned up afterwards. So once a week, he went to a private room in the barracks, and did his thing with cigars, candles, rum, and even a live chicken one time. It was kinda cool to know that this was possible.
For my personal take on it, I don’t care at all what people believe, I only get offended when they try to force it on me.
I have no clue about Satanism. But I can easily imagine how this would be commented on the Ragin Imams get informed about this.
The Great Satan to witness his submission to Satan.
Variation (more powerful):
Western Satanists exposed by their Satanic rites
Other variation (sublime power)
The Satanic Army in action.
This can only end in great commotion and wonderful newly fueled rethorical use of the marvelous, creative and inviting Arabic language. I litteraly can hear it coming. (I’m almost tempted to give a hand to Bring The News where it obviously shall end up without my help in no time.)
Salaam. A