Almost nude vs. completely nude and how modesty operates…enlighten me.

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have never had a time in my life when I felt like I had a genuinely attractive body, even when I was only slightly overweight, so I have no way to know what modesty about sexual parts only would feel like. I don’t want people to see my body because it’s not attractive. But that is the only reason: if I had a nice body, I would have zero problem with being seen completely naked. Or rather, the fact that I was seen “in the bits” wouldn’t bother me in and of itself - I was never uncomfortable with my bits being seen by my gynecologist, for instance, and I’ve heard of many women who find it “embarrassing” and I don’t comprehend that in any way.

The only thing I can imagine would make me uncomfortable about strangers seeing me naked would have everything to do with context: I wouldn’t want my bits seen if in the seeing it could easily be construed by others as an invitation; I can understand feeling vulnerable to unwanted approach and contact. (While I theoretically support the idea that a woman should be able to dress in any damn way she likes without having to fear that she’s “inviting” rape, including being stark naked, I also think it’s unrealistic to expect that walking around stark naked in front of anyone and everyone would be neutral in the effect it would have on anyone and everyone. So while it might not be fair to expect me to modify my behavior because other people can’t control theirs, I’m less interested in taking a stand than in not being raped.)

But outside of that I can’t really imagine for myself how a woman with a pretty body that she feels good enough about to show off in a tiny bikini would be embarrassed by people seeing the tiny bits under the tiny bikini, and maybe most of the women who feel comfortable being in public in tiny bikinis really wouldn’t be, I don’t really know.

I havent’ done a stellar job of making this clear, but if you think you can offer me some enlightenment on the nature of modesty that is exclusively connected to the sexual bits and has nothing to do with feeling unattractive or with religious expectations, I welcome it.

2

I think it’s mainly conditioning. But maybe that’s a good thing, I think only fit young women should be nude.

3

Yeah, but try going to a YMCA or a adult only gym and their are usually all the old fat guys walking around naked.

But back to the OP, remember when those women are “showing off” their bikini clad bodies they are 1 in maybe a sea of them.

4

You obviously haven’t seen my wife, nor will you… :wink:

5

The “invitation” thing is specific to the sexual bits.

eg physical stimulation making it seem you are experiencing a sexual urge…
Suppose you are with your family (parents, brother.etc) …

Different women may feel this differently, more differently than with men…
Some women don’t get much sensation from their clitoris or outer labia, and some do.

The boys erection is taken as an invitation too, isn’t it ?
Teenage boys get erections too easily …

“The impressionable teenagers” thing. Maybe the nude beach should be 18 and over.?

6

I figured someone would say this, but I’m skeptical that that’s all it is. My impression is that some kids develop a modesty about their bodies that comes from within themselves rather than being externally imposed.

7

Being insecure about one’s looks isn’t limited to people with “unattractive” bodies. Even people who fit the profile of attractiveness may not be 100% in love with the way they look.

There’s also personality. A person who is shy and inhibited probably isn’t going to want to go out attracting attention, even if they don’t have any real hang-ups about their body.

8

Not sure if this is along the lines of what the OP is asking, but…when I was young I had a good figure and sometimes wore “barely there” clothes. I knew they could be suggestive and had no problem with it. But one time I went to a party in a see-through blouse, no bra, and was very uncomfortable although it wasn’t that unusual for the times. I found that, for me, showing a little side boob or cleavage was very different from fully exposing my breasts, even covered by gauzy material. I didn’t feel sexy, I felt unauthentic. It wasn’t for me.

9

I’ve spent the last 15 summers at neopagan clothing optional festivals open to families and people of all ages and body types. My observations:

Under 8 years old and between 19-28 year olds are the most likely to go nude or some version thereof (topless or bottomless or wearing sheer fabrics).

A smaller percentage of all ages and body types are going nude now than were in 1999-2004. I have no explanation for this shift in modesty, just have observed it in multiple campgrounds in multiple states with multiple groups.

Children raised in a culture where nudity is okay do indeed tend to choose to cover up around age 8. Their choice, as far as I can tell. My own kids did it, and I certainly did not push for it or suggest it, and they’ve never reported that anyone else did. I suspect it has to do with a growing awareness that nudity is not acceptable outside of festival culture, and their moral development being in a very black and white stage. Younger children get “at festival, it’s okay not to wear clothes, but at home we wear clothes,” because their concept of right and wrong is driven by what they can get away with. Older people get, “at festival, it’s okay not to wear clothes, but at home we wear clothes,” because they get that right and wrong are human driven concepts which can change with circumstance, and as long as no one is being hurt, an action cannot be immoral. Children entering Kohlberg’s Conventional stages of moral development can’t do that. Things are either right or wrong, and since they spend more time in an environment where nudity is wrong and shameful, it becomes difficult or impossible for them to go nude even when it’s acceptable to the community. The adults respect this perfectly normal stage of development, and no one pushes or shames them about their choices (or if they do, they are quickly reprimanded by other community members.) Our subculture does tend to lead people into the Post-Conventional stages a bit younger than most, because we’re constantly displaying and endorsing a “what works for you may not work for me, and that’s okay” framework.

(What would happen to children raised full time in a nudity is okay culture? I suspect they would be okay with nudity, as children in traditional tribal cultures in very hot areas of Africa are. Of course, even in cultures where they barely wear anything, they wear something. A penis gourd is still a covering, and if you don’t have on your penis gourd, woe betide you! A shell necklace may not look like much, but it’s “properly clothed” to some people. So some level of body adornment as social control or tribal marker seems to be built in to humans. I know of no culture which has embraced total nudity at all times for all members.)

Once you get into the 30-somethings and older, there is less nudity again. I think part of this is personal body image issues (it sure was for me) and part of it is that the luster has worn off and the practicalities are more burdensome. Nipples require a lot of sunscreen. Cooking over a campfire nude is generally not a great idea. Carrying a towel to sit on wherever you go is a lot more of a hassle than just wearing a skirt (both men and women wear skirts in this subculture). Greater body mass and more skin folds invite more prickly heat when you don’t have absorbent cloth on you to remove the sweat.

So, yes, I do think that for some people at some stages of their development, it’s a cultural conditioning and/or body image issue. For others, it’s just a more practical choice to put on some clothes!

10

As indicated by others, teenagers may tend to cover up because they’re bodies are immature and they recognize it. Some adults may never lose that feeling in a society of clothed people but I think they’d mostly conform to the social norm. I’d be willing to conduct an experiment involving fit young women in the 18-27 age range to resolve this.

11

It’s also worth mentioning that women who are delighted with how much of their body looks might have issues about the appearance of their nipples and/or labia. There’s a whole different set of standards there, and since we are really not exposed to the wide variety of “normal”, I think a lot of people feel like what they have is “weird”.

But really I think it’s just about having a sense of time and place and appropriateness. I feel comfortable at the pool in my bathing suit, even though with a BMI in the 27ish range I am not exactly attractive. But if I had to walk into my classroom like that? I’d feel quite literally naked and ashamed.

12

I think it has a lot more to do with personality than with appearance.

I know plenty of porkers that love to wear short skirts and shove their saggers in your face. Apparently they didn’t get the message that only attractive people can do that.

13

But isn’t this, to use a currently unpopular trope, just ‘‘begging the question’’? How did ‘‘conditioning’’ originate? Disguising nudity is old stuff. At least from Genesis, and most of those stories are found in even older myths. The unattractiveness of ones body had to be learned someplace.

The most convincing yarn that I have heard is from some primitive tribe where the women wore skirts to keep devilish spirits from entering their vaginas. Makes as much sense as ‘I wear garments because my naked body is unattractive’’ or whatever else has been put forth.

14

And as the polar opposite to WhyNot’s culture, which i wish to God I’d been born into, I grew up being explicitly told that bodies, especially girl bodies, were shameful and dangerous, and to this day cannot be comfortable in public without a ‘decent’ amount of clothes: underwear, padded bra (god forbid nipples), tops that cover my stomach, and shorts to my knees, or skirts to my calves.

I have three bikinis, and have worn them each about twice, either totally alone in a private pool, or with my husband. I wore a bikini once with my close friends at a beach trip, and felt wildly exposed the entire time.
Now, here’s where it gets funny. I actually like my body, I like the way I look, and I (and my husband) are both very much anti-clothing at home. I wander around my house in the buff all the damn time and don’t give even the tiniest shit about it. I have the feeling that if I hadn’t been beaten with ‘bodies are shameful’ messages my whole childhood, I might actually have been a good nudist.

15

Well, since I’m hung like a moose I don’t mind at all if someone sees me. If it’s men while I’m in the gym changing room they can’t help but be impressed. If it’s women seeing me, well, what’s not to like?

Ahh, hung like a moose problems! :slight_smile:

16

As to health professionals, I go with the assumption that they’ve seen enough gentleman parts and lady parts to be calm and not-sexual about it. I owe it to them to not be embarrassed about it. It’s not quite the same for me to undress in a gym locker room, but I can do it and pretend it’s a routine thing.

It would be surprising to see somebody walking down my street wearing nothing but a pair of shoes. (The recycling truck leaves behind enough bits of glass that barefoot is out of the question.)

17

Good question. I don’t know, but I’d guess the answer has something to do with the fact that clothing works. It’s utilitarian, it’s a status symbol, it can enhance or degrade sexual attraction. So people without clothes would be ‘primitive’, not a good quality. It’s going to be more complex that just that though.

18

A møøse bit my sister once.

19

I had considered the utilitarian aspect as being quite important but had trouble moving on from there until I read ‘’ … without clothes would be 'primitive … ‘’. and recalled that Veblen wrote of the importance of dress. I think we’re on to something there.

20

Clothing has the benefit of being both utilitarian and decorative. So it’s easy to imagine that clothes were one of the early status symbols. A fat cured deerhide is simple and cheap and will cover your body from the sun and the wind and the rain. But if you are rich in hides, then you can cut them up and stitch them together so just the prettiest parts without any holes or tears or stains are made into your clothes. If your people are such successful hunters and gatherers that you have time to sit around making beads and still have enough to eat, what better way to display your wealth to other tribes then by tying the beads onto your hides and hanging them from your body? Then it’s just a hop, skip and a job to insisting on “proper” clothing that represents your people and is acceptable to the gods.

^Speculation, not anthropology, since we’re in IMHO.