Alright, that's it- fuck cars, and the stupidity of the human race for using them

No, Who, we are not “all children,” but the fact of the matter is that most people drive like shit, and you know it. They speed, run lights and stop signs, drink and drive, have road rage- and you know it. Your criticism is bullshit.

Women are not as good, we all know, at handling their cars and knowing how they work and traffic laws, but they are better driving overall, I’m williing to bet, because they are such infrequent road ragers and they speed, well, less recklessly (but still a lot)… Young girls are very bad drivers, very foolish indeed.

Men are better at handling their cars and knowing all about how they work and the traffic laws, but they speed more and have road rage more, and I’d bet a lot that they cause more traffic fatalities. I’d like to know for sure, but no one seems to have this data handy…

^^^ I know I’m going to get jumped on for these generalizations, this being the Pit and all and you guys enjoying flaming over an argument, but we know that these descriptions are not ‘sexism’ they are ‘calling it like it is’- and that is OK. And I think many, if not most, of you share the same views of drivers as what I state above. I’d be interested, however, in finding out the exact details of who causes more fatalities (men or women, which race, etc.)- just for the sake of knowledge and understanding, not for any sexism or racism, just in order to know the truth instead of going by these assumptions ^^ based on overwhelming evidence.

Does anyone have the stats?

This is being changed, by virtue of taking the human out of the equation. The most dangerous part of any vehicle is the nut behind the wheel.

And this is how I know you haven’t really taken much from the thread pitting you.

It’s not “calling it like it is” simply because you say it’s “calling it like it is”. Stop using the words “we know” when you mean “I know (based on nothing other than maybe something I read somewhere sometime, or just pulled out of my ass)”. And you claim your assumptions come from “overwhelming evidence”, what it that exactly? Your arguement’s not going to get jumped on because this is the Pit. Your arguement’s going to get jumped on because it’s baseless, and you’re making stuff up and then asking people to find data to back it up for you.

And speed limits are fine. If people could master the art of “not fucking driving on top of other people’s bumpers”, we wouldn’t have to worry so much about speed limits.

Oh, and exactly which aspects of traffic laws do we women lack knowledge of, and why? Flaw in our genetic makeup? We’re too busy applying lipstick to notice stop signs? Or… what?

I’ll take my chances, along with supporting the strengthening of existing laws to get repeat drunk-drivers off the road. I’m not prepared to edge in the direction of Stalinism to do so.

Well, to be fair, interstate culture is/was most definitely a cultural choice, and there are many modern conveniences and attitudes that might deserve a second look, despite how convenient they make some things for us.

1 in 30? So about three per hundred deaths in this country (well, less, if that statistic includes permanant injury) are from traffic accidents? Again, not something to be proud of, but I’m not seeing how that is the end of the world.

The serial killer analogy is just plain off. As I think was mentioned in the thread that inspired this one, driving without intent to kill does not equate with premeditated planned murder.

I had a job interview the other day, and as part of it we took tour of the manufacturing plant. The guy showing us around was talking about safety, and said there were something like 40 work-related accidents last year (in a company of thousands), and was pretty proud of it. I wouldn’t say to him, ‘hey, that’s like some guy going around knee-capping forty of your employees every year, and you’re happy about this!?!?’

In any given dangerous activity (and driving is definitely one) there will always be an element of risk. Part of that risk involves dealing with other operators, but unless that other operator is grossly negligent (drunk driving, etc), then operator error, even other operator error, is just part of the risk you have to assume.

The question is not whether any one given accident could have been prevented if [fill in the blank]. It’s whether or not, as a whole, driving is an activity with an acceptable degree of risk. One could argue that changing driving restrictions/requirements would help things, but you’d have to show that it actually would make things better, which I’m not particularly convinced of. And suggesting that driving be banned is silly and impractical on many levels.

(one could also argue about the ‘dangers’ of driving filling a need/desire for risk and control that many lack in their lives, thus leaving you to pry their cars from their cold, dead hands (hm… no reference to the OP intended there), but that’d be a topic for a GD I think).

Yelling “cite” is not a coherent argument, no matter that half the boards thinks it’s oh-so clever. What kind a “cite” are you looking for anyway? Are you denying that governments, by design, are not inefficient bureaucracies? Because that’s just silly, you might as well argue that a cat is not a feline. Do you have any examples of things that the government does do efficiently? (I’ll give you the mail, but the USPS is something of an anomaly for a governmental agency, it generates it’s own revenue stream independent of taxes.)

Well, in keeping with the theme of this thread, our interstate highway system runs pretty darned smoothly.

And, in your original statement you said the government couldn’t do anything “effectiely.” Now you’re saying “efficiently.” Pretty big difference; which do you want to go with?

Well I might support the concept of carless cities. But a carless country is just unworkable when it is of the size of the United States with the population so spread out as ours is.

Theres basically two options:

-Enormous system of public transportation

The problem being we’re talking probably ridiculous costs, and the government actually makes a good bit of money from gasoline taxes, making us pay for our registration and inspection stickers and etc, so I doubt that society would actually have an inordinate amount of extra money going around if you abolish car ownership.

Even if we could get the system into place, to serve everyone in the country the bus routes would have to be extremely meandering, and would be insanely inefficient. Business would break down because of the fact some of their employees would have 3-4 hour commutes to work and depending on the luck of the draw they may not even be able to make work that day if the buses aren’t running on time.

-Forced centralization of all Americans

This would make it so the public transit was more efficient, deal with the problem of people living in geographically hard to get to areas by forcing them to move into central locations.

Of course then I ask this: Is avoiding roadway accidents worth basically giving up such an enormous amount of our liberty?

Personally I think the system today is fine. People choose to live in places that require them to use cars, or people just choose to drive cars in general. They know the risks, they’ve decided they are okay with the risks. I don’t think government should take that right to decide away form them.

For the people like andrew that think the risks are unacceptable, I say to them: Don’t drive. You don’t have to. There, everyone is happy. The people who want to drive, and are okay with the risks, do so. The people that find the risks intolerable can simply live somewhere with good public transportation and avoid driving completely.

Aw, sweetie, don’t you worry your pretty little head about this little argument. You just go back to painting your nails. :slight_smile:

Auto manufacturers need to either provide parents/children/grandchildren with gutless-wonder machines (like the 4-cylinder/automatic ‘85 Buick Skylark that my inexperienced drivers used) for their kids’/elderly relatives’ usage or they need to provide reprogrammed computers for their standard machines.

Too many elderly people in rural areas where you can’t get a bus or taxi can’t handle a modern fast-accelerating, high top-end machine but could still stay independent and in familiar surroundings–not a big nursing home in the Big City-- if we could cut rate of acceleration, top end speed,kill the engine if the accelerator is pushed too far/too fast at low speeds (indicative of confusion as to which pedal is the brake and which is the gas), cut maximum speed/max. acceleration rate in reverse gear,and trigger GPS locators in sheriff’s cars if the machine has been operating beyond a certain time or distance limit (to prevent the annual tragedy of Granny or Gramps wandering off-road into a cornfield in bad weather–not to be found 'til spring).

Everything that would help keep an elderly driver from being a danger to self and others would be useful in giving teens “training wheels”, as well.

I agree with some who say that parents bear great responsibilty for giving their kids cars beyond their capability. Recently, a group of kids died because the driver’s parents let him take a 250 hp. machine out just weeks after he got his license. That kid should have either had some gutless vehicle with a large body and small engine (4-cylinder GM “A” body, 4 cyl. Dodge Dynasty, etc.) or the parents should have put a governor on that fancy car.

Well, I would, but I’ve got this hair appointment to go to… Hey! You don’t suppose I could save a little time by just giving myself a manicure on the drive there, do ya?

The beauty of this country is the ability to make that choice.

Lemme guess, you’re a freshman in college, yes?

And of course these gutless-wonder machines should also be mandatory for just plain assholes, right? To make a car that’s hard to kill with, you’d need one much slower than an '85 Skylark. Anyhow, it seems to me that most senior citizens are already driving Buicks.

amaranta- first off, let me say that I understand that I’m going to lose this argument, that I’m going to be shot down and crushed by a board that won’t tolerate anything seen as offensive or biased towards anyone: although, I read a thread recently in which a pizza delivery man complained about a population of African Americans in his city who did many disagreeable things, including

  • complaining about their orders being late, even when they weren’t
  • never tipping- even the well-to-do ones

It was pointed out in said thread that there’s a difference between racism and ‘calling it like one sees it’- and the fact is that many populations of African Americans can be seen to exhibit these characteristics. This is a cultural tendency observed in many populations of Blacks in America. ‘Racism’ would be generalizing all African Americans as non-tippers who complain about orders and put rims on their cars, etc.- this is too broad. But ‘calling it like one sees it’, having observed a widely-observed trait verified by numerous sources over a long period of time and backed up by evidence, is OK- in fact, not doing so is just plain bullshitting.

If the members of this board were to suppress all talk of African American populations being stingy in defense of that being ‘hate speech,’ that would suck. That would be bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

:: sigh :: amaranta, I am not a sexist; in fact, I think very highly of women. I say this not because I have to present any political-corectness to anyone, but to be honest.

As I said, I’m willing to believe absolutely that women are, on the whole, better drivers- they are more considerate, they don’t drive as recklessly (although many certainly do), and they don’t generally do things like road rage. I’d bet $100 bucks that the statistics show they do indeed cause far fewer fatalities than men do- and BTW, does anyone have those stats?

Anyways- it is widely observed, however, that many women are not as good at handling their cars as many men are. Now of course many female users are going to respond to me explaining how well they drive, how they handle their cars, never been in an accident, etc., and how I am a sexist despicable pig for even daring to say such a despicable thing. We are too bound by political-correctness on these boards and in this country.

But many of us can relate to what I’m saying, even if they don’t speak up about it for fear of being shouted down and seen as sexist (as is happening to me right now). And I understand that pressure, and how I probably won’t get any support for this; but we all know women who don’t handle their cars as well as many men we know. There are also a lot of women who don’t know much about their cars and how they work, but then again, there are many men who don’t either, myself included; it’s just to say that many men have an interest in both how their cars operate and therefore a better understanding of how to control it. Of course, now responses will come explaining how bad some guys you know drive and how good your wife or other women drive, and I understand; but there is truth to criticisms of women’s driving skills.

A poster in a thread a while back pointed out that young girls, teenage girls, are the ones who are in traffic court the most of all teenagers, pointing out that they are not prepared to drive, and we all know many (or have known) young girls who fit this description. They have little to no knowledge of the cars they drive (not even of their own license plate numbers), they don’t know the surrounding area or how to navigate from place to place, they don’t know many laws or accepted traffic behaviors- this is why we MUST push for tougher training of American youth!

I did learn a lot from my pitting in the past, and the main thing was: only post was you truly believe. I mean these things 100%, and I don’t care that they are not politically-correct or popular ideas, they have been observed many times in many places, they are ‘calling it like it is’, I am NOT a sexist, I like women very much, and I’m willing to face the flaming and lack of support I’m going to receive for my claims. But please, if you find any truth in what I’ve observed, speak up- don’t let the pressure of the political correctness of the other users hold you back from speaking what you see as the truth.

Yeah, in the same way that there is truth in stereotypes.

You need to to learn a little bit more about not muddying your own waters. We can have a very interesting discussion about the car culture in North America - good, bad or indifferent? or we can have a trainwreck about women drivers. As for me, I would prefer the former. Howsabout it, guys - can we save the off-topic points about women drivers for another thread?

I think you’re onto something, andrew, and I agree that our car culture is a problem in North America, but I don’t think you’ve found the solution yet. Cars are so very convenient, and people are going to have to have a damned good reason to get out of them permanently. I am pretty environmentally conscious and all that crap, and even I am having a hard time giving up my convenient automobile. Joe Shmoe who doesn’t think about anything at all will laugh in your face at the suggestion he stop driving.

But, on the plus side, when we run out of easily-accessible oil in 30 years, only the rich and powerful will be able to drive, and that will cut the accidents way down.

I’d love a nice sidewalk or bike path, preferably both. I live fifteen miles from work, and I’d be in awesome shape if I ran or rode it, but I’d be taking my life in my hands trying to get there outside of a one-ton vehicle. Less than a mile from my house I have to cross a freeway onramp or offramp with no crosswalk, let alone a pedestrian stoplight. Riding a bike means facing death at every single driveway.

But no! More automobiles! Cushier seats! More drive-throughs! We should drive more and more, and get fatter and fatter! American can still lead the world in morbid obesity! USA! USA!

Andrew,

So it seems you realize that everyone can’t take the bus, train, bike or walk to where they need to go. That’s good. It seems a lot of people don’t realize how unrealistic public transportation is for many of us. If we even have the option.

More training? Maybe. But a driver that appears to be good during schooling still commits the worst sin on the road. Not paying attention.

For as much complaining that I see, and even that I do, I don’t think there are that many horrible drivers out there. Or there are enough very good drivers to compensate for them. Think about how many billions of miles are driven every year.

Anyway, how about this. Don’t fine people money, fine them time. At least for accidents and such. In other words, get in an accident; go back to driver’s school. Serious ticket like reckless or dangerous or to fast for conditions – driving school.

This would help address the problem instead of punishing those that already drive well.

Just an idea. Though I’m not really sure anything needs to be fixed.

andrew, stop with the pathetic whining. What this board is is certainly not “politically correct”; this place is quite heavily biased towards people who can prove their assertions. You can claim that you’re “calling it like it is”, and that it’s “widely observed”, but that don’t make it so. I know of no evidence that women are worse at handling their vehicles much less at following traffic laws; you can make a statement like that if you want, and if you managed to provide some evidence, it wouldn’t be some moronic sexist generalization. But you want everyone to just agree with you that it’s true without your having to stoop to providing evidence, and if you haven’t figured it out yet, that ain’t gonna happen.

I’m quite well and thoroughly tired, though, of people like you making broad, sweeping declarations like this without providing a hint of evidence to back them up, and then blaming everyone else for not just compliantly believing. Stop whinging about how we’re “politically correct” and start providing some reason to believe the things you’re saying. It might be “widely observed”, but I sure as hell haven’t observed it, so you’re gonna have to do better than that.

Or better yet, next time don’t interrupt your own argument by starting another one over something as stupid as this.

Isaac Asimov, who refuses to drive a car, pointed out that if he were to write a science fiction story about a world where people wandered about at high speed in multi-ton vehicles, which with a moment’s lapse of attention could kill their occupants and any number of other people, no one would believe it unless they lived on such a planet.