let's ban all cars! no. but we SHOULD do SOMEthing.

Great Debates
1

in the wake of the sandy hook tragedy, a lot of pro-gun folks were setting up the “well why don’t we ban all cars, then?” straw man. the common response to them is that there is no call to ban all firearms, or just don’t respond at all.

however, their straw man is made of sterner stuff than most (possibly to the dismay of those making the argument). and i believe it is time we reconsider our use of the automobile, and take a look at the many problems it causes and what can be done about them. obviously an all-out ban is absurd, but it’s time we stop ignoring the toll the american use of the automobile takes on us, or stop pretending there’s nothing that can be done.

nearly 33,000 people died in traffic accidents in 2010, including 4,280 pedestrians, for whom improvements in car safety would do nothing (good, anyway). there have been many discussions, which i won’t rehash, about the environmental impact of driving cars, and america’s culture of individual automobile ownership, but i think it’s fair to say most everyone recognizes that it has a negative effect. the robert moses school of urban design, where an expressway runs through every downtown, has created urban blight in countless places, many of which haven’t even begun to recover. this is to say nothing of the sprawl it has created, for some surely don’t consider that as awful as i do.

there are other, more anecdotal but perhaps more insidious, tolls the adoption of automobile culture has taken. in july 2011, in buffalo, ny, dr. james corasanti hit alix rice, killing her, while driving drunk, and then fled the scene. he received a sentence of up to one year in prison, despite having a previous alcohol-related conviction. the defense argued “it could happen to anyone”, and the jury bought it. this is the sort of cognitive dissonance that allows 30,000+ deaths a year to be used as a favorable comparison by the pro-gun guys.

am i just some great bearded hippie who rides his bike everywhere and hates cars (though i do have a license and cause to drive from time to time)? or is this the elephant in the room that it seems to me? surely many of these deaths and other problems are preventable, but how do we do it, and how do we change the culture that spawned these issues?

2

What is the primary purpose of a gun?

What is the primary purpose of a car?

One of these things is not the same as the other, can you tell which it is?

3

Where do you live? I daresay banning cars would be practically impossible in 95% or more of the US. I ride a bus to work, but I need to drive my car to the park-and-ride to do so-- and I’m damned lucky there’s bus service going my way at all. (In fact, this is actually only the second job I’ve ever worked where it was possible at all to use transit to get to work.)

4

To make this equivalent to the gun debate, you would need to have the AAA spending, millions of dollars to oppose any discussion of traffic laws, car registration or automobile safety standards.

As it is there is a great deal of discussion about this over the years, with the goal of finding a happy medium between safety and utility. If you wish to tweak this equation one way or another feel free to put forth an idea and it can be discussed freely. Having a congressman say that perhaps penalties for drunk driving should be increased or the legal limit lowered, doesn’t automatically result in a legion of voters being mobilized against him based on this single issue.

5

A carbon tax might help. Using the proceeds to further subsidize public transport might be a practical application for the revenue.

Random breath tests (RBTs) are pretty common where I live. They’re also used in some American states.

I’d say banning cars would be practically impossible in 99.99% of the US and every other country, especially if the ban extends to commercial vehicles. The only car bans I know of apply to islands like Mackinaw or some of the Channel Islands.

6

Ummmm…

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=M02&year=2012

7

It’s not intended purpose, it’s social utility.

If you banned cars, you’d destroy the economy. Most people use them, and all people are dependent upon cars and trucks to conduct the commerce that keeps them in products and services. An actual ban on motor vehicles would quite literally cause people to die of starvation. Motor vehicles are a linchpin of the economy; it cannot function without them. They make us much, much, much richer.

The economy would get along fine without guns. A total gun ban would hurt gun manufacturers and the hunting and target shooting industry, but that’s not the whole economy or close to it. Countries with extremely restrictive gun laws, like Japan, get along fine, but take away their cars and the country would suffer.

8

Can we have a link to someone posting that we should ban cars?

You are making the exact same mistake as the anti-gun folks…an inability to properly assess actual risk and put the numbers in perspective. 30k+ SOUNDS like a large number, but in the perspective of a nation as large as the US, where literally 10’s of millions drive every day, it’s a drop in the bucket. The risk to reward for automobiles is huge (compared to anything, let alone something like firearms)…our modern society literally could not exist without them.

And, as in the gun debates, the thing is we are ALREADY doing things to try and mitigate the negative impacts. Car deaths aren’t going up in the US relative to the population increase…if anything, they are going down. We have regulations and laws to try and minimize abuse and to try and make things as safe as possible without being ridiculously over protective and prohibitively costly. In the end, everything we do, including having automobiles, is going to have a negative impact on society and on individuals…but the benefits to society far, far outweigh those negatives.

9

That does work better when you have more than two options. :dubious:

10

You’ll have to pry my steering wheel from my cold, dead hands!

11

Here’s some ideas:

We could make sure that all cars are registered with something like an identifying number for vehicles (INV?). This would make it easier to track cars.

Perhaps each person who operates a car should be licensed in some way. Maybe issue them some kind of government document.

Also, before operating a car (which can be dangerous if misused), I think people should be required to pass some kind of test that ensures that they know how to operate one safely.

Finally, let’s enact some kind of legislation that makes cars safer. Perhaps they could require that all cars contain some kind of strapping device that would prevent drivers and passengers from being forcibly ejected during a crash.

12

So what do you propose we do? Car accident deaths can’t be eliminated, but there have been a lot of changes that have made cars safer: widespread use of seatbelts, the crackdown on drunk driving, and changes in the design of cars. It seems to me that deaths in car accidents have decreased a lot over the years. That doesn’t mean they can’t be further reduced, but it’s not a problem that is being ignored.

13

Nobody “ignores” the car “issue”, automobile safety issues are constantly discussed in this country, and legislation enacted to make the operation of vehicles more safe for all involved.

Bringing it up in response to someone wanting to discuss gun safety is an absurd and irrelevant distraction.

14

You’re too kind. I think “asinine” is more on point for this argument.

15

Freedom hater!!

16

The issue is that it is typically not about “gun safety” it is about “gun bans”.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1499001/posts

The automotive industry has the advantage of being able to ask for science to be applied to laws. They also vastly out spend and lobby the entire gun industry.

17

“Car safety” often involves prohibiting or requiring certain features of motor vehicles.

It might have something to do with the fact that automobile transportation is vital to the everyday function of our country’s economy. And yet, people are still willing to have discussions about what could be changed, improved, or restricted to make modern motor vehicles more safe.

18

Yes, you have seen right through me. My ultimate goal is to get those crazy ideas about registering cars pushed through, then I"m going for the total car ban.

I’m sure you can find out about my evil plans somewhere on a reasonable website like Free Republic or some such.

Don’t worry - I don’t mind at all when I make suggestions about how to make cars safer, and then someone uncovers my nefarious plot to ban cars!

19

If congress started passing a large number of laws outlawing black cars or cars with bucket seats I would be the tolerance for the legislation would drop quickly.

That is part of the problem, so much of the firearms legislation is been based on fantasy and not reality (AWB, Teflon bullet ban, plastic gun ban) that people are jumpy.

E.G Even the NRA supported instant background checks.

And I think in this thread or another I said I am for expanding background checks and may be for some bans on some items, but not due to false claims and fantasy.

20

Of course one reason that gun laws have focused on trivial stuff is that more substantive laws aren’t possible.