Alternatives to socialized health care

Is that true? I thought doctors in Canada earned considerably less money than in the U.S. And yet students are still pounding on the door for a chance to spend four+ years preparing for such a career?

BTW, this seems as good a time as any to revive this old GQ thread – “How does the rise health care costs since the '50s compare to rate of inflation?” – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333560 – to which I never got a satisfactory answer. If you think you know something, please go there and weigh in.

I bet they saved on social costs of uninsured people, such as lost work, dependence on relatives, etc. If Mandatory had the same result, that would be fine with me. The issue is that the US pays more for a worse outcome than other societies. It would be nice to pay less for a better outcome, but paying the same for a better outcome would at least be a step forward.

Your quote says that people can not trade off salary vs. health insurance. That’s not quite true. Many cafeteria plans, like the one I’m in, force minimum coverage, but have different levels at different costs.

As has been mentioned above, you have to be a bit careful about different levels of benefits, since young people tend to subsidize old ones. That doesn’t mean all coverages have to be identical.

I don’t know that it is impossible to give part-timers the same options as full-timers have today. Perhaps it is impossible to let them opt out of the system if health care is offered. I doubt this is the reason it isn’t offered in so many places, though.

Why not hire doctors who trained in other countries? The author of the article quoted below agrees with you in part, but then goes on to include factors from the socialized system. No solutions were proposed.

Yeah!

Maybe it’s just unusal. ?? I’ve not needed my employers’ insurance plans for years. One international company reimbursed me somehow (can’t remember now) for what they would have spent – it wasn’t an increase in hourly wages, but should be considered an increase in salary. At a small company where I worked recently, it was take the insurance or nothing. I’m not sure if you are taking issue with mandatory insurance, etc. here, so I’ll move on.

So, you don’t consider it a requirement if we go to mandatory insurance, you just wanted to know if that was part of (someone’s) proposal? If yes, I’ll leave off researching this for now.

Just curious – why did you pick the 50s?

Just a point of information. Cafeteria plans are common at big companies. You get a certain amount of money to be spread over health insurance and other types of insurance. You pay more if the money available doesn’t cover (common) but if you don’t use it all, you get money back. So going to a lower coverage plan is an increase in salary.

There’s insurance and there’s insurance. If the mandatory amount was a WalMart like plan with very high deductibles, it is different from a plan like the Taiwan one with copays. Titles don’t mean much. When I lived in New Jersey we had “no fault” car insurance which supposedly costs less, but the threshold for suing was so low it was a total joke. I can easily see those against universal heath care offer a mandatory insurance plan that would be almost useless also. So I withold judgement until I see more details.

BrainGlutton, I think the quote below is comparing health care costs and inflation from 1965 to the 1990s, but I’m not sure. (my bolding) I’m glad I found this site, FISpace, in researching your question, BTW. It’s in my favorites list now.

I asked, and it seems to be possible to do the same in the case of some groups, but not in my case. My doctors apparently aren’t considered to belong to the same office. That’s two offices that just happen to be situated at the same place and to be belong to twin brothers, apparently.

Anyway, most generalists in France don’t belong to large offices, but to small ones or just work alone.

Regarding specialists, you can see whoever you want, but your generalist must recommand that you see an (undetermined) cardiologist, stomatologist, etc…

Actually, I don’t even know what happens if you see another generalist you’re not registered with or a specialist without seing first a generalist. I believe you’re only reimbursed partially, but maybe you’re not reimbursed at all.

Objectively, there’s not much I can say against this system. It makes changing doctor a little more complicated since you have to do some paperwork, and you can’t take anymore directly an appointment with a specialist (well…you can, but you have to pay) and I’m sure it will be somehow reduce some abuses, but subjectively I don’t like these restrictions. I’ve always been accustomed to call and take an appointment whith whomever I felt like.

This issue has been often mentionned in previous threads on the same topic, and many posters seem to think that the overhead cost due to the existence of many insurances, with their own rules, redtape and paperwork plays a more important part is the higher costs of healthcare in the USA than the liability issues previously mentionned.
Once again it works differently in each country, but concerning France :
There’s one form the doctor has to fill. He has a pile of them in his office, printed in his name. He picks one, write your name on it, the code number(s) of whatver medical act(s) he did, how much he charged, signs it and hands it to you. End of the insurance-related paperwork as far as he’s concerned. Then , you have to send it to your local “securite sociale” office that reimburses you.
Actually, in the case of most generalists, he doesn’t do that anymore. You hand him a chip card, he passes it in reader, enter the codes mentionned above and the amount he charged in a specific terminal, and don’t give you any document. The reimbursment is directly sent to your bank account, IME within two weeks. I don’t think any human being is involved in this process at any point in most cases.
I’m sure there are more paperwork than that that I don’t see and that various issues arise with the healthcare system that he has to deal with when I’m not around but in any case, he doesn’t have to juggle with a dozen different insurance companies having each its own requirments. The two doctors I mentionned above have one secretary between them who answers the phone, lets you in, does the paperwork, gives me back whatever I left this time in the office (checkbook, prescription, jacket…), etc…

Have you noticed that Americans are coming to Canada to buy their prescription drugs ?

I’ve been a taxpayer for over 40 years in Canada, and my justification for supporting the Canadian system is that I and all my fellow Canadians can afford it and most of us have all the amenities provided by our overall capitalist system such as a home, a running car, food and clothing and a computer on line that Americans have.

Still concerning France. Yes, we’ve a shortage of doctors too. However, not at all on the same scale as in Canada (as far as I understand the situation in Canada). I’m unaware of anybody who would be unable to find a family doctor. Actually, I understand it’s rather the reverse and some generalists are lacking patients. There are some issues with lack of generalists in the countryside, but it has more to do with doctors being unwilling to be roaming on the roads 18H/24 7 day/7 to answer housecalls in small villages than with a shortage of generalists per se.
However, there’s a shortage in some specialities. For instance psychiatrists (which is weird, because I checked out once and they’re making quite a lot of money by comparison with other doctors. So, I’m not sure why more doctors don’t become psychiatrists). Also obstetricians, if I’m not mistaken. And more importantly doctors of all kind in hospitals. The problem in hospitals is currently “solved” by “importing” doctors (with a lower pay, more work hours, less guarantees) from eastern europe, developping countries, etc… Preferably after making them jump through various hoops for some years. I know a romanian doctor who eventually gave up and became a nurse.

As for the causes? I suppose they aren’t paid enough by comparison with their responsabilities and workhours in hospitals hence prefer to open an office.
There’s also a shortage of nurses, by the way.

I just wanted to point out an issue, which, it seems to me, is never mentionned regarding healthcare in the USA.
Assuming that the USA would hypothetically switch to a socialized healthcare system : what happens to the currently existing insurance companies?

We call in Dr. Kevorkian! :slight_smile:

Hmmm… That’s an issue too in France, even more so since there’s a “numerus clausus” in medical schools and doctor’s unions have been know sometimes in the past to lobby strongly so that the number of positions would not rise too much.

However, nowadays, when the issue is discussed, I way more often hear about poor work conditions or insufficient income to be the cause. Though indeed, medical schools are ridiculously competitive. So, maybe I pay too much attention to the plight of doctors.

They could be used to administer the system, under contract. However, they all have plenty of other businesses - selling life, auto and home insurance. They’d shrink, but none would disappear.

I think the point we need to keep in view is that all the mechanisms proposed byt tombigbee et al. are just ways to shift the spending around. Frankly, it’s what we’re doing now, and it’s not a reform. This all seems to be driven by a psychological reistance to the idea of “socialized medicine,” and not by a desire to make the system more efficient overall. In America, we’re addicted to this idea of achieving reform through tiny increments, such as by jiggering with the tax code (see HSAs as an example). I know this is about politics, in that we can pretend to ourselves that because we’re not making a Treasury outlay we’re not spending tax dollars, but it’s still maddening from the perspective of the healthcare consumer, who is given just one more thing to worry about (and gamble on, as well).

I’m here to say that these patchwork solutions are wrong, wrong, wrong. The amount of money we waste every year is staggering, and as tombigbee notes, the demographic trends are not in our favor. We need to solve the problem now before it devours us alive. And frankly, I think it’s not all that difficult, though I think it’s easier when you start at the state level.

Here’s what I would propose. Because I live in Massachusetts, where most people are covered by HMOs paid for by their employers, I would advocate retaining most of the existing system. The only significant change I would make is that the state would pay the cost of enrolling each taxpayer in an HMO of their choice, and the state would fund this by imposing a tax on employment. This tax could be graduated based on the size of the employer, so that a self-employed individual might only pay 10 or 20% of the levy. Why would I do it this way? Because business are already in paying for health insurance. In my proposal, business would simply send their payments to the state, per employee, and get entirely out of the business of negotiating with the insurers, administering the benefit, and haggling with the unions over health benefits. I think, even with a small increase to cover the uninsured, businesses would still come out ahead.

The only other large-scale change I would make would be to make all medical providers bill using a standard medical coding system and claim form, which would probably go to some centralized clearinghouse. The insurers would still negotiate with providers to set their rates, and the HMOs would still have to make themselves attractive to individuals, which would keep some market forces at play in my proposal.

Is this socialized medicine? Only in the sense that the government becomes the one payor. In every other sense, the existing system is retained. Most people would in fact see no change whatever. But you would achieve significant administrative efficiencies, and could then go forward and talk about the shape of the health system of the future. Because that, while a separate issue for the purposes of this discussion, is something that ultimately needs to be looked at.

Sal Ammoniac, thanks for taking the time to write your proposal. I’m doing homework today and will look at it again later. In the meantime, I have some side comments and a couple of questions.

Comments – I myself don’t fear socialism. Early Christian church members practiced a form of socialism. I think socialism and capitalism are both ideals whose pure forms have never been achieved on earth on a large scale. We are continually tweaking capitalistic and socialistic systems, I believe, to solve problems caused by people being people. I like the benefits of capitalism and I think as a system it plays better against peoples’ tendancy to look out for #1. There have been built-in barriers to implementing innovative solutions to our current health care system, and these innovations should be included in any reforms we eventually adopt.

Questions – Could you expand on your proposal in the areas of 1) including the uninsured (as MA is dealing with this also and I believe is considering a type of mandatory insurance provision), and 2) promoting the public family (if you think that is an important goal)?

My proposal would provide 100% coverage. There would be no uninsured, since everyone could pick the HMO of their choice. I have no opinions on the “public family” idea. It seems more like a philosophical framework than a policy proposal, no?

And “socialized medicine” has nothing actually to do with socialism in my view, and in spite of numerous arguments to the contrary over the years. In the proposal I set out, providers might be either for-profit, or nonprofit. Rarely would workers own the means of production – it would violate the Stark laws! (Sometimes, that is.)

It’s such a complex subject, I doubt most would bother to read all the details if posted on this message board. I encourage you and others to follow up on your own (and I know you will!).

Things I learned today: South Africa has no national health care insurance system and has used HSAs for many years. One people-being-people result is that insurance companies have competed for the healthiest in the population. The solution is that the government will penalize insurance companies that don’t have a good mix. The cite says South Africa’s system has failed, but I don’t see why we can’t make GIGObuster’s point here also, that it is a problem that needs solutions, not overhauling the system. Don’t know that much about it though. They don’t seem to have a problem with people putting off getting needed care. South Africa and the failed HSA experiment

Finally, I think that even with every efficiency in place in a National or Mandatory system, the cost of health care is going to rise because of the increase in life expectancy. That means an increase in the number of people with chronic health conditions needing long-term care. Citizens in each country will have to pay the increasing costs in one way or another. In both a National and Mandatory system, it’s likely to mean either higher taxes and/or shifting funds around from other programs. The latter would mean reducing other government services overall. In a National system, it could also mean rationing in a roundabout way (long waits). Those are guesses I know, but I think they are reasonable ones. Consumer choice: Can it cure the nation’s health care ills?

I have a huge problem with long waits, whether it’s to see a GP or a specialist, but it seems that wherever health care is ‘free’ or ‘cheap,’ it’s likely there will be long waits. Maybe dentist offices would be an exception. :slight_smile: I believe that’s why many people end up in emergency rooms now with our current system – they can’t ‘afford’ to take the time away from work or caregiving duties to wait at a free clinic for hours.

A main goal of consumer-driven, mandatory health insurance is rationing by pricing and not by waiting. Wait! There’s much more to it than that!

I’m disappointed that my classmates are so quick to jump on the “Let’s copy Canada, Sweden, etc.” bandwagon because I think they’re doing it without understanding how those systems work. Posts from clairobscur show that a national system may also be a challenge to fully understand without making an effort.

When, where and how are we going to debate the pros and cons of each system if we don’t bother to understand them? I do not aim this personally toward anyone. I thank everyone who participated…it helped me a lot.

I dislike them because they’re worthless until long after they’re opened. If I start an HSA today, and next month I break my leg, the few dollars I will have managed to put in my HSA by then won’t help me one bit, and the mandatory high-deductible insurance plan won’t kick in until I’ve spent half a year’s pay.

You could’ve paid for your eye surgery with a checking account, or even a credit card; it just would’ve cost a little more. As far as I can tell, the only point to opening an HSA is avoiding taxes on the money you save for medical expenses… but IIRC you can deduct medical expenses anyway, no matter what kind of account you keep the money in.