Blivit:
Avery Brooks who played Captain Sisko on Deep Space Nine said that when he got on an elevator white women would clutch their purses as though he was trying to steal them.
Everytime I go to a new “black” club with my black friends they have to convince everyone that I am not a cop. What is your point?
QUOTE]The statement that blacks have to work twice as hard to be thought of as half as good strikes me in a very peculiar way. Could you give something to back up the assumption of others thoughts? In order to understand I would like to be sure of where you are starting from. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
No problemo.
When I was in high school, my extracurricular activity of choice was the academic team (some may know it as quiz bowl). And boy, was I good. Could answer questions of the most trivial sorts as fast and as accurate as Annie Oakley could shoot. All right, maybe I wasn’t that fast, but I could definitely hold my own when grilled.
So I tried out and was accepted to the varsity team, along with a handful of others. Mostly white guys. Being my naive, callowed young self, I thought that my status on the team would be dependent on how well I played the game. It was all about the mind, I thought. Didn’t think that me being a black girl would interfere with my position at all. But it did.
Coach kept record of how many questions we answered correctly during practice on the chalkboard. Consistently I outperformed over half of the guys that came on board the same time that I did, but they were given priority seating above me during tournament time. In other words, they were handled as better players than I was even though my practice and tryout scores beat theirs.
And yet I gave my coach benefit of the doubt. Maybe he just didn’t like me. Maybe he was sexist. Maybe these guys just had something that I didn’t. But when I saw him treat the other black players even worse than he treated me, when he showed even more favoritism to the white girls, and when I realized that the only thing the guys had that I didn’t have was white skin and a penis, Occam’s razor kicked in.
Finally, the coach upped my status so that I could play the big tournaments without constant fear of losing my seat, but it was only until my practice scores were so much higher than my teammates that he couldn’t continue to give me the shaft without being conspicious about it.
It was the same way in orchestra, but you don’t want me to even get started on that train wreck…
Sounds like your coach wasn’t looking out for the best interest of his team. Nice to hear he did come around though. I can understand that a little extra effort can make the difference but don’t you think that “TWICE as hard to be thought of HALF as well” is a little overboard? Did you really work twice as hard as the white guys? Were you only thought of half as well? It sounds like you were rewarded for your patience.
Dammit, she shouldn’t have needed patience! She was better than those guys and they were given preference because they were White.
Patience my ass!
Most of us find that patience is needed in life at different times under different circumstances. If the coach was influenced by negative views about race I would think he would be due a bit of patience to correct himself before we burn him at the stake. Patience is not the question here. Working twice as hard only to be thought of half as well is the question. I really just want to know if Biggirl believes this to be true or if she was just repeating an old addage.
Um, I can’t quite recall if I exactly answered twice as many practice questions as my teammates, but to say I worked twice as hard as they did wouldn’t exactly be hyperbole. Not only did I have to answer more questions than they did, but I took more flak when making mistakes, was given the evil eye for not answering questions that I should have known, was given little praise. The others could be mediocre and still get pats on the back. That was not a luxury afforded to me and the other black players. You know the saying that goes something like “you have to keep running just to stay in the same place?” That’s how it was for us. The other players were allowed to walk, sometimes sit, but we had to keep running just to get respect grudgingly forked over.
And you consider that a reward? Funny perspective that is. LOL.
Well sure it is a reward. Exactly what were you expecting? You went out for the team, made the team and in the end secured your seat. I would think you would have a very proud story to tell about how you made the team in the face of a little pressure instead of such a bitter account about how it should have been easier for you. Funny perspective that is.
You mean the SDMB?
Sadly, it happens. Some gay/black/whatever people are discriminated against so often that they begin to think it’s their fault for being gay/black/whatever. I think that’s a terrible way to live, but it’s not impossible.
Well to take the other side (someone’s gotta)
Hmmm. Have you surveyed posters and know who’s white and who’s black? Do you have access to some data about the racial composition of this board that the rest of us have missed? Or have you made a presumption about the composition of this board’s membership because of the nature of the discussions held? If the latter then Mrs. Blackity’s accusation may stick. Blacks may very well be over-represented on this board. Or not. But to presume that blacks are under-represented on this board because it is an educated intellectual pursuit may indeed be a sign of self-hate.
Of course it sounds like she would consider this a “white” board too … and that self-imposed stereotype that intellectualism is somehow “not black” is, IMHO, self-loathing in addition to self-defeatist.
Oh, I dunno. Maybe to be treated like everyone else on the team, give or take a little. But just a little. Didn’t think that expecting bare minimum was unreasonable.
But I’m sure that if your boss made you work double-shifts six days per week, with not even a shit break for your colon’s sake, let your coworkers slack and go home early, even giving them stock options and other goodies, but none for you, sorry; and then graciously gave you a paycheck two months late, you’d call that a reward. And what do I know about anything? You could be right. All along I’ve been thinking that that infamous bus driver was wrong for making Rosa Parks move to the back of the bus. When, you know what, she should have just been thankful to have a seat on the bus period!
sigh
But not without jumping through a lot of unnecessary hoops and walking tight-ropes just to be recognized as good as the white kids. That was the only point I was trying to make. Did you miss it?
I’m trying my best to be courteous, but you are coming off as quite patronizing and willfully close-minded, not to mention wrong about how I “should” have seen things. My anecdote was not bitter; in fact I went out of my way to depict that episode in as non-emotional, non-editoralized way as possible. What more do you want? You asked for substantiation for the “blacks have to work 2X as whites” assertion, and so I gave you my testimony. Yeah, it wasn’t exactly upbeat, but were you expecting a happy story about polk-a-dot mountains and purple dinosaurs?
I guess you and You with the face are correct, and I don’t understand “the black experience.” Which is why I asked about it in the first post on this thread. Having seen many of your messages on the board, I have a mental image of you as being witty, well educated, and generally in control of your life. In short, a successful person by most people’s standards.
What is it your friend thinks you should do to become more black, or truly black, or whatever? Should you start living your life like a negative stereotype? Should you live down to some reputation perpetuated by White Nationalist groups?
If this is the case then she seems to be putting you into a no-win situation where success is equated to being white, or at least not completely black. Is that her definition of being black? To fail?
Apologies if I am coming across as aggressive or pushy but this is something that I am curious about as I have a mixed marriage but we don’t live in the US. I’m kinda looking for what to expect when we finally come back.
Thanks.
Testy.
I do believe that you had to make extra effort to get your just recognition. The thing is that lots of people have to do that for whatever circumstances. It’s not right but it’s not a license to make big leaps of assumption either. The statement was that black people have to work twice as hard for half the thought and that when a black person does somehting bad it reflects on all black people while the same is not true for whites. If Biggirl is struggling with her self identity these sweeping generizations she has set are the first things to examine. It is hard to imagine that a black person that gives TWICE the effort only gets HALF the thought of a white counterpart. Not today. I can agree that a black person may still have to out shine his or her white counterpart but TWICE the work and still HALF the reward? That is overboard and any such gross disrespect would rightfully be met with a team of NAACP lawyers. As far as the black reflection / white reflection, you must understand that only an individual can decide if the actions of a single person will reflect upon his or her judgement of the entire group. That is a distinction made by an individual. Such as some Americans that may judge all of Islam by 9/11. Others do not. When Biggirl says that the actions of individual blacks reflect on the balance but not so with whites, she is only disclosing her own perception and assuming it to be the perception of others. True it is the perception of some but to believe it to be overwhelmingly true is setting yourself up to fail with your own rationalization in place when you do. I don’t want to anger anyone here. Biggirl asked a question and I would probably affirm that she has some issues with being black that she would do well to rethink. There are people out there that will try to hold you down for being black, no sense in buying into their generalizations. Before long no one will have to hold you down… you’ll do it yourself.
No, it isn’t impossible. Yes, your perception is wrong.
I know it happens to me from time to time for being female. I know it happens to me much more often for being black. From what I’ve heard - it happens to some people who are sexual minorities as well. The stereotypes catch up with you, and you hate them, you hate yourself for being associated with them, and you hate yourself for not being able to be different, and you would trade the world to be something else or that they would just go away, or both. Luckily, my flashes of that tend to be flashes, or at least very short lived, I think, maybe (I don’t know)… I guess I don’t consider someone a self hating <blank> until it becomes a more permanent, constant way of seeing the world.
To answer the OP - by that definition, I’d say no, or at least I’ve seen no evidence of it on the message board.
As for some of the other points, [ul]
[li]Anyone who is perceived as even partially black in the US is living the “full, real black experience.” It’s not like it’s something that you can avoid. Assuming you ever venture into society - there it will be, waiting for you. How anyone could deny that is beyond me.[/li][li]Valuing diversity (what a buzzword) does not mean you hate yourself. They don’t even look the same.[/li][li]While I think that giving more slack to people who aren’t black could be a sign of self hatred - it isn’t an absolute indicator. There are the questions of how, and when, and what are the consequences. There’s intent and nuance. In your posts, I don’t see the self-loathing answers to those questions.[/li][/ul]
c_carol
What else?
In fact, we’re practically invisible.
Are you being purposefully obtuse, Blivit? It’s clear there is a BIG difference between being rewarded and getting what is due. The former implies that you’re getting something extra. The latter implies that you’re getting what you SHOULD be getting by virtue of being a decent human being.
If someone is pummeling you in the stomach and then all of a sudden stops, are you being rewarded for your endurance? Basically that’s what you’re saying to you with the face.
You’re completely dismissing her point. Unfortunately–as I’ve seen TOO many times on this board–you aren’t the only one who plays this kind of game when we’re talking about racism.
Another anecdote:
Before I went to college, I enrolled myself in an orientation program specifically targeted to minorities. The basic goal of the program was to prepare us for the harsh environment we were about to encounter. Many of us had never been “the only one” before, so the counselors had to help us make an adjustment. The underlying premise was that we had to work harder than the other kids because we would be constantly challenging negative stereotypes. Like ones that said that we were all AA beneficiaries, and thus we were incompetent and didn’t belong in an elite institution. Like ones that said we were irresponsible and lazy. It didn’t matter if we knew we weren’t any of these things. We would still have to combat this messages on a daily basis.
So, we were told to sit arrive promptly for class and sit in the front of the room. We were told to ask “smart” questions and to engage the professor in productive dialogue outside of class. We were told that it wasn’t enough to “get by”. Even making the Dean’s List wasn’t that great for us. We had to shoot for 3.5 or better.
When the white kids in my dorm would go out drinking and wilding every night, you would find my twin sister and me studying. Because if we didn’t do well, we were–in essence–proving everyone right about the incompetent, wretched, ne’er-do-well blacks invading their previously lily white school. Who would want to contribute to yet another ugly statistic about Black Failure[sup]TM[/sup]? Who would want to enable december when he coins phrases like the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations?
It’s pressure that most white people do not have to face, because their failures belong to them (and maybe their parents)–not to an entire race of people.
Yet another anecdote just in case that one was too complicated:
When black kids act rowdy on the bus or when a black guy robs someone or when a meely-mouthed black person is shown on the news, people use these instances to justify their prejudice. They say things like, “Don’t they know they are just perpetuating stereotypes?”
When white kids act rowdy on the subway or when a white guy rapes someone or when a Confederate-flag waving white person is shown on the news, people are able to view these instances as isolated. Sometimes they may rationalize them with lovely phrases like “kids will be kids”, “the guy was probably crazy”, or “he’s not hurting anyone”.
In other words, blacks generally have to work harder to be seen as wonderful INDIVIDUALS. Whites are generally seen as wonderful individuals by default.
Libertarian, I think you’re confusing self-hatred and self-pity. You aren’t invisible to me; I can see your posts just fine and clear. Say something.
Very well. Your generalities are so broad, they are practically tautologies. And your specifics are so contrived, they are practically contradictions.
You guys make me ashamed to be White, Dude.