It is hard for YOU to believe that. It isn’t so hard when you actually have to walk in the shoes of a black person. You’re getting stuck on petty arithmetic anyway. If the ratio of black output to white output is not exactly 4:1 nationwide as verified using chi squared analysis with 95% confidence, does that completely negate the argument that black folks in general have a greater burden of proof than white people in general? That is, in essence, the reason why Biggirl feels the way she does. Not because of math.
The anecdote by carnivorousplant illustrated that because some black men are thieves, the assumption of a lot of people is that all black men are thieves. Stuffy, as well, told of his own experience with people who assumed things about him based off stereotypes and a few experiences. Everyday black people are pulled over by cops for doing nothing except looking a little like someone else who has committed crimes. Folks are stalked in stores and ignored by taxi cabs. Does this kind of thing happen to white people? Sure it does. But on the same scale that it does with black folks? I doubt it seriously.
To be fair, I do agree with this. Although I empathize with Biggirl, I believe that black people face enough externalized pressure to allow internalized pressure a free pass.
And now I’ll say one more thing. I don’t speak for black people. Hell, I don’t even speak for red people. I’m speaking only for myself here.
Don’t ever pity me that way. Don’t give me any slack for some need that you perceive. And don’t grant that I deserve a free pass for anything. If my load is heavier than yours, then it’s just heavier. And if I carry it, then it means only that I am stronger than you.
We have gone over this territory before, and if some are willing to wait to when there is less traffic, I will post some links to the “is there still racism?” type threads.
If you would like to start a new debate on if blacks are still at a disadvantage in the US, I’ll gladly participate. I’ve still got my sites and cites on the inequities in our penal, financial and educational systems all ready for you.
Well, they always tell me you can’t predict what direction any thread will end up going in. I 'd like to steer this back to the “self-hating” part. Since I am black the title of this thread has the word “negro” in it. But there are other types of self-hatred. How is this defined in the mind of other posters here?
I don’t think the type of shame that people have described in this thread counts as “self-hatred” of the “Uncle Tom” or “Self-hating Jew” variety. That occurs when people feel so ashamed that they become bigoted against their own people, in an effort to remove the “stain” of their background from them. Such a person feels that if only they could become the antithesis of the stereotypes of their people, to the point that they themselves are disgusted by them, they will be accepted (by other people as well as in their own minds) as people to whom the stereotypes don’t apply.
You don’t see this often - mostly the accusation gets thrown about in political disputes. But I saw at least a couple in my recent visit to Stormfront - a Jewish anti-Semite, and a half-Mexican anti-Mexican, both desperate for acceptance into the WN community and eager to prove their bigoted credentials. Pathetic.
How so? Someone asked for evidence that “blacks have to work twice as hard as whites” and I was obliging them, albeit anecdotally. If you think my specifics are “contrived”, maybe you should explain how. Your participation in this thread is unproductive otherwise.
What way?
Understanding has been solicited in this thread; not pity. Obviously you’re confused. Biggirl:
Good question. Actually, I think what we’ve been discussing isn’t really “self-hatred”, if we take a literal interpretation of that term. Depressed people hate themselves. Suicidal maniacs hate themselves.
It is not impossible for me to understand being isolated from a social group. I would warrant it is not impossible for anyone to understand. The plight of the [black man] is a tunnel-view on the plight of everyone who ever sought to be a part of a group but didn’t for some reason beyond their control.
If you tell me I can’t understand, it is no wonder the division remains. You’ve perpetuated its very existence.
This is the point I wanted to get to. If Biggirl truely believes the ratio of black output to be 4:1 in order to be equal then she is setting herself up for failure. The white guy works 40 hours a week and in order to achieve the same status a black person has to work 160 hours?? That is not the case and if you make yourself believe this you are being waaayyy too hard on yourself. This gets back to the opening. If Biggirl really feels this to be the case then I would be inclined, again, to believe that she is making things hard on herself in addition to the others making it hard on her. As far as the stereo typing, any group can be and is stereo typed according to isolated incidents within the group. That is not just a black “thing”. Just ask an Arab or an Asian or …
You are taking things much too literally. There is no way to calculate the “ratio of black output” that I know of. If there is I’d be glad to see it. How about if I had just said “It is much harder for blacks to achieve a particular standard than whites?” Doesn’t read as well, does it? Here are a few cites on how it is harder for blacks that I got without trying too hard. Perhaps you can give us the input/output ratios.
I bring it up because I’m proud of it. I don’t mean to make it an issue, but merely to speak in contexts like these in order to share my point of view. Being an Indian is like being Black in many ways, but in many more ways it is more difficult. I don’t want pity for that. I just want people to know.
You’re hung up on semantics, my friend. Is the point blacks have to work exactly 2.0 times as hard as white counterparts? Or is it that blacks have to generally work HARDER and that this reality fosters self-hate?
Previous posts seem to indicate that you accept the latter, or at least its possibility. Therefore, it seems like you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing. This isn’t a good way to make friends around here.
The thread is called “Am I Self-Hating Negro”, not “Can You Rationalize Away my Feelings of Angst and Frustration as if You Understand Everything and Know Everything, Even though It’s Clear You Do Not.” No, self-hate isn’t a “black” thing. You don’t even have to be a minority to understand it. But you sure have to be a minority to experience it. Honestly, I’m tired of hearing from people who haven’t experienced it speaking about it from ivory perches of safeness and self-security.
Watch. The moment this thread goes dead, someone will create a thread with “Blacks” in the title. Undoubtedly, badness will be attributed to the “Blacks”. Why do Blacks Eat at Red Lobster? Because those restaurants are low-rent and blacks love their greasy foods. Why are Blacks Overrepresented in the Criminal Justice System? Because they are disproportionately poor and dysfunctional and have genetic propensities towards violence. Why Do We Need Affirmative Action? Because Blacks don’t value education and they can’t make it on their own due to inherent deficiencies. Why do Blacks Name Their Children Crazy Names? Because they are stupid. Reparations? Blacks are greedy and need to stop whining. Is Clarence Thomas Stupid? He’s an Affirmative Action beneficiary. Of course he’s stupid. Why do Black Males Roll Up Their Pants Leg? Because it’s a gang style and all black males are in gangs.
What happens when I read these threads? I post to them because I can’t help it but then I go away hating, vowing never to return, but always failing in this promise because I get bored when I’m at work.
So I think it’s appropriate that Biggirl created a thread specifically about black self-hating. It allows us to show the white posters out there that their vitriol may very well affect our psyches, even if we pretend they don’t.
Another point I’d like to make is that the division of Black and White is a false dichotomy, and not just because there are other races out there, like Indians and Asians.
It’s false because there are people who happen to be White and are oppressed, like White homosexuals and lesbians for example. And there are Blacks who are in positions of privilege, like Michael Jordan and Condoleezza Rice.
The real division is between politically powerful and politically powerless.
The semantics in this case are relative. Biggirl laid out her case and asked if, based on the supplied info, if she was self hating. Her recent post relating that blacks are disadvantaged is realistic. The opening was over reaching and now it seems that Biggirl realizes that the twice as hard for half as much scenario really isn’t the truth. So, why then would you want to make things seem worse than they really are? Just getting back to the self hate topic. The manner in which you related the opening does suggest that you harbor some bad feelings about who you are and it shows when you make bad generalizations and assumptions. I am not looking for the reasons why black people are disadvantaged or to what degree. I am just trying to answer your question in regard to your view of yourself as a black person. You don’t give black people alot of credit and you affirm generalizations about black people. I think you do have some degree of self hate or loathing. And BTW, I am a member of a minority group.
Actually, my opinion is that the only difference between the feelings of the “Uncle Tom” and what we’re discussing is the intensity of the shame, not the type of shame. I think the feelings come from the same place and have the potential to be triggered by the same things.
We’ve talked about stereotypes and how members of a minority group who live up to those stereotypes become a source of anger and embarrassment. Biggirl has said she comes down harder on black people when negative stereotypes are played out. But where should the line between shame and acceptance be drawn? The lady with the pack of kids and the food stamps may cause blood to curdle, but is shame warranted when a black person proclaims their love for watermelon or fried chicken? The crackhead on the six o’clock news charged with breaking & entering will certainly prompt heads to shake in dismay, but should hearing a black speaker substitute a “d” sound for a “th” cause anxious clearing of throats and blushing?
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the root of the shame is the same for both the “Uncle Tom” type and the “Regular Black”. It stems from the fear of being associated with socially unaccepted difference, whether it be in the criminal form or in the shape of cultural “backwardness”.
Exactly. If I overreact to the foibles of another black person and quickly seek to separate myself from them out of the certainty that other people’s prejudices will damage me in some way, then inevitably habit will lead me to run away from black folks altogether. That would be self-hatred in its more obvious form, but a person wouldn’t necessarily have to be a fullfledge “Uncle Tom” to sometimes feel that way.
I’ve seen black people like this. Actually, I’ve had a few friends who show these kind of tendencies. One friend is unnaturally self-conscious about the kinkiness of other black people’s hair. At one time he actually said something to the effect of “But what will the white people think”?
I don’t see where it has been proven that the ratio of input/output (whatever that means) isn’t 4:1. I have invited you to to the math with the few cites I gave. But that is neither here nor there because “twice as hard for half as much” is a figure of speech. An idiom. Not to be taken literally. Let’s move on, shall we?
I could have sworn I have already said that I do not consider them “bad generalizations and assumptions”. Why do you think they are bad generalizations and assumptions? Which generalizations were bad? What are my assumptions?
Where do I say I affirm generalizations about black people? I know that the stereotypes are wrong. I know that all black people are not stupid or criminals or welfare mothers. Perhaps I didn’t make that clear.
Biggirl,
I must admit that I am not sure at this point what it is you are after. Your question was “Am I a self hating negro?”. You follow this with a fairly brief summary of how you feel about being black.
Do you want thoughtful response to your querry based on what you have provided or are you here to change the subject and pick a fight? Where I come from that is called baiting.
The first thing I noticed in your response was the use of the twice as hard for half the thought remark. This strikes me as very important in determining how you feel about being black. It would be important to know if you are repeating this or if this is your personal observation. Why did you say that? To answer your question it would be important to know. If it is just a figure of speech why do you use such a loose figure of speech? The 4:1 ratio is niether here nor there in relation to the larger issue of disadvantaged blacks but it is important when contemplating how YOU feel about being black. We are still talking about you, right? If you still don't accept that the 4:1 ratio is important, consider that it implies that successful white people work only 25% as hard as successful black people or "White people work half as hard and get twice as much". Would you be as quick to use that language? Remember, consider this as you would feel about it, not how PC or truthful it is but how you would feel about it.
The second thing is that the actions of some blacks reflect on the whole of blacks while the same is not true for whites. That is a big can of worms that I would not want to open except to say that the mere fact that you present it as truth from your perspective sheds more light onto how you feel about being black.
Biggirl, If you are looking for an outsiders perspective on yourself I can tell you what I see with the tid bit you have given to work with. If you want to pick a fight about race count me out.
Blivit, are you a Black person? I’m assuming that you’re not, because you don’t seem to be aware of what Black people experience, and consequently you sound like you’re talking out of your backside. You also don’t seem to have a grasp of the history of this country as it relates to Black people. A Black person can realize their dreams but still one does wonder from time to time how much of a bigger realization of the dreams would have occurred in the abscence of racism in this country.
I find it absurd that sometimes my decision to go into a store is based on whether or not I feel like being disrespected by the workers and/or owners of that store, even though I have a pocket full of money and properly dressed. That’s just pure craziness, but a part of the Black experience.
Biggirl, I don’t know if your attitudes reflect self hatred, I think they more reflect trying to move closer to the ideal of a “raceless” soceity. One thing I will say though, cutting other groups more slack than your own needs to be looked at.
