As I’ve explained, it is because you have less political clout. Politics is the conduit that allows access in a democracy.
How many Indians are on the president’s cabinet? How many are in Congress? How many are Supreme Court justices? How many are accomplished athletes whom kids look up to as role models? How many are famous Hollywood stars who speak out on behalf of their people? How many lobbies are concerned about Indian affairs, and what is their wealth and fund raising capacity? How many inspirational spokesmen are there who lead marches? And so on.
Actualy, Biggirl, if your friend thinks that illiteracy conveys authenticity, I suggest that it is she who is the “self-hating” Negro. If she also thinks that you are somehow less authentically black because you have mixed racial ancestry, then she is also a racist.
What amuses me even more is that, by your friend’s criteria, no African is really “black”–they don’t talk street, they work very hard to get ahead without expecting any handouts, and they view criminal behavior as a personal failing, not as an inevitable byproduct of living in a multiracial society.
Maybe you should have read the rest of her post. Focusing on the picyune shows you only care about upping your post count and not content and meaning.
I don’t think Biggirl has a problem being black and doing the things she has to do to survive as a black woman in society. She was born that way, so she’s used to the hoops and hurdles.
I don’t want to be so bold as to speak for her, but I think her problem is with people–who happen to black–who don’t seem to be managing as well through their own hoops and hurdles. She’s working harder–whether it’s twice as hard or 1.2 times as hard. It’s a cross but she’s bearing it well. I think her friend took humbrage with her “What can’t everyone?” stance. That is why she may judge black people harder than everyone else (an idea that I can understand, but disagree with).
So basically you’re saying that every group is essentially treated the same. Minorities are no more impacted by stereotypes than white people are.
Hmm. So how come you never hear horror stories about white people being trailed in stores? Or being wrongfully pulled over on the side of the highway? Or being overlooked by taxi cabs? Or having people beat them up for simply “fitting the profile”? Why do all of these stories seem to come out of the mouths of black people (or other minority groups), but not white people?
Either black people are liars or white people are extraordinarily stoic. Can you tell by my tone that I believe neither is true?
It’s hard for me to believe that you understand anything about the topic at hand.
Well, I do think that an immigrant from African and a descendent of African slaves (black) are different in so many ways that it is unfair to group them together. So even though it may be funny to you that these two groups are different in Miss Blackity’s scheme, it doesn’t seem so ironic to me.
And perhaps more importantly, how does this have anything to do what the OP?
by Gobear:
Why are you assuming that Girlfriend is equating illiteracy with authenticity? Furthermore, why is it that Dseid quickly assumes that it is because this board has an intellectual focus that Biggirl believes the SDMB is predominately white, as opposed to other reasons (such as the demographics of computer usage and the board’s nonracial targetting audience)? Are people inferring things from the OP that are warranted by the information provided? Or our personal biases getting in the way of interpretation?
Again, I think you are reading things into the OP that aren’t there. Where does Girlfriend say that if you don’t talk “street” (whatever the fuck that is) you aren’t black? And where does Girlfriend say that demanding handouts go hand-in-hand with being black? Biggirl didn’t attribute any of those claims to Girlfriend.
You guys are still leading this into a discussion about black America. This isn’t about black America. This is about Biggirl. I am not ignorant to the obstacles that face black people. The question is, does Biggirl hate herself for it. I know some people with the attitude of “well thats just how it is” some that think “its not right but I will overcome” some that think “the only reason I ever fail is because I’m black” and some that think “no use to even try cause I’m black and I am going to fail”. It is more difficult for some black people in America. I am not being stoic toward the plight of black Americans. I just didn’t think that was the focus of the discussion.
I thought I addressed this already, but I see that I didn’t. The reason why I assume this is a predominatly white messageboard is because: 1-- of the over 200 Dopers I have personally met only 2, Houseman and Zoltarb were black. BTW, Houseman is my husband and Zoltarb is my son. 2–Of all the hundreds more pictures I’ve seen of Dopers, there was only one other black poster. (Has anyone heard from Askia K Hale recently?) 3-- Every time I assumed a poster was black without that poster self-identifiying themselves as such, I was wrong. Every time I assume a poster is white without that poster self-identifying as such I was right.
No where have I said that you cannot have intelligent conversation with black people. There are plenty of intelligent black people right here at the SDMB, however black people make up a tiny fraction of a percent of the posters on this board-- so yes, this board is predominatly white. gobear– Street talk or slang isn’t a sign of illiteracy-- check out the AAVE GD thread and the GQ thread that spawned it. Coming to a job interview at a health insurance company all iced out and telling the interviewer “Yo son, I’m available 24-7.” proves, to me at least, that you are an idiot, not illiterate.
Blivit, you do not decide what this thread is about.
Go back and read your previous posts (particularly the one that implied that my experience in high school was just an example of a “little pressure” getting in the way of my “reward”). Can you see why the focus of the discussion turned down the path it did?
DSeid, funny how you challenge Biggirl about the demographics of the board, but you don’t have a shred of data, not even anecdotal data, which she has provided, to the contrary.
This thread however, may have a large percentage of Black posters Biggirl
you with the face
monstro
amarinth
Stuffy
EasyPhil
Relative to every other thread on the board, that is.
Where does Girlfriend say that if you don’t talk “street” (whatever the fuck that is) you aren’t black?
It is pretty clear that Girlfriend thinks that street vernacular is more echt black than speaking standard English (and let’s not get into definitions and linguistics–you know what I mean)
Yes, we’ve been all over the Ebonics threads and the origins of black English. However, if someone speaks only in gangsta speech, I’m going to assume that person has a poor command of standard English, both spoken and written, just as I would make the same decision about a white guy who could only speak in Hillbilly.
In any event, nobody-not me, not Girlfriend, not Colin Powell, nor Harry Belafonte–has the right to define Biggirl’s blackness. Only she may do so.
Biggirl, the opening of this thread ask “Am I a self hating negro?” Are you changing your mind about asking that question? Seems to me that you already decided the answer to that before you posted it and you are just fishing for suckers rather than an honest attempt to solict others perspectives on your situation.
As for the opening question. Again, you have used language and descriptions of your experience as a black person that does seem self loathing in regard to your race.
This is Great Debates Blivit. Girlfriend had an opinion about me that I disagreed with (I did say that in my OP) and I thought it would be a good topic to debate. So, let’s debate.
What language have I used that you think is self-loathing? Why do you believe it to be self-loathing? Which description of my experience do you think is self-loathing? Why do you believe this experience displays self-loathing?
I have tried to engage you before-- you say I am using bad generalities, but have not named any even after I’ve asked for examples twice. You say I am working from a set of mistaken assumptions and keep throwing out this 4:1 ratio that I never seriously posited and which you have yet to disprove.
My discussion with my girlfriend was just a jumping off point for for this thread about issues of black (and I had hoped other minority) identity politics.
Now let’s debate. I do not think I am self-loathing although I do think I have a problem with the way racial identity plays out in our society. Your turn (and please don’t just say “you are self-loathing” again. Give examples. Give reasons why you think this. Ready?
Ok Biggirl. Thanks for being honest in what you are looking for here.
As said before, the comments of twice as hard for half as much is striking. There are many ways you could convey the sentiment that blacks have to work harder for success. You choose a generality that is excessively tough on blacks. If you pose the question to Wino J. Blackman and Manute Bole you will get two very different answers. It is a statement that is neither fact nor fiction and only serves to reveal how you feel about the effort required of blacks in America. It seems to me self loathing in the fact that you chose to use that particular language when you could have easily rephrased the same sentiment without such a striking negative ratio as the dig.
The next issue would be the supposition that the acts of individual blacks reflect on you personally. Why do you believe this? There is a black guy down at the laudromat that ask me for a dollar everytime pass there. Honestly, I don’t expect you to ask me for a dollar or kill me or kidnap my children or anything else any other black person has ever done. The acts of individuals in a group may well reflect on the group but to go as far as to think it reflects on you individually is, again, excessive and indicative of loathing for ones self.
The next issue is that while this reflection on you personally is somehow true because you are black would somehow not be true if you were white. Not to mention that you seem to see the world in black and white, you seem to have the idea that whites don’t have to deal with stereo types and such. That is just wrong and points towards the fact that that you see yourself being penalized for things just because your are black and only because you are black and if you weren’t black no one would make those kinds of judgements about you based on whatever other group you would choose to be a part of. If you decided to be Italian there are plenty of stereo types and reflections that would be cast on the group etc. etc. etc.
The fact is Biggirl, if you could change into anyone you wanted to be today, there would be plenty of reason you could find to not be happy with who you are or the group you belong to. Successful people don’t spend alot of time doing that. We’re to busy looking for the things that are right in our worlds.
Biggirl said that her friend took issue with her response to black people using “street” in professional settings, NOT that one has to talk “street” in order to be black. These are two different things; you can’t infer the latter from the former without first making some unsupported assumptions. By “street”, I think of slang and colloquialisms typically associated with people in an urban environment (not the same thing as AAVE). Why do you think of illiteracy?
Gangsta speech? Can’t you see how your own preconceived notions have influenced your intepretation of the OP? Plenty of people (white and black) use slang; the earlier mentioned “24-7” is a common one. “Man”, “yo”, and “chillin” are others. Like Biggirl, I don’t feel slang has a place in a formal setting, but likening it to gangsta speech is wrong, unfair, and yet again shows that the lifestyle of a few poisons the image of the larger group.
I don’t mean to pick on you, but I do think you need to check where you’re coming from with your ideas.
It is excessively tough on blacks in general and in the specific. That is exactly what I meant to express (why you keep on harping about the colloquialism I used is beyond me.) Are you saying that it really isn’t all that different and my insistance that it is is an expression of self-loathing? I would think that if this was true I could be accused of self-pity and not self-loathing.
However, I do not believe it is self-pity or self-loathing. It is the truth. Manute Bol and Mr. Blackman suffer the same commonplace indignities just because they are both black men in America. And check out the links-- especially the one on housing-- and see how having money can allievate the indignities of being poor, but does not rescue you from the ones that you suffer because you are black.
Because I’ve heard “you blacks” more often than I care to remember. Because I was walking down my block one day and some perfect stranger called me “a fucking nigger”. Because the general population thinks that the way I speak marks me as stupid and lazy. Because we have supposed sociologist writing bestselling books on how blacks are iinherently stupider than whites and biologically inferior. Because our financial institutions label me a bad risk-- not because of my credit history but because of the color of my skin. Because it is true that blacks in general carry the sins of their brothers on their backs in a way that whites don’t.
I see that you are in the “every thing is better now so stop whining” camp I mentioned in my OP. It is because I am black and only because I am black that I am called a fucking nigger. It is because I am black and only because I am black that my dialect is considered lazy and inferior. It is because I’m black and only because I’m black that I am put in the bad risk catagory in financial institutions. Etc, etc, etc.
You don’t know me very well, do you? Of course not-- you’re new here. I am quite happy being black. I’m still wondering where you’ve gotten the idea that I want to change into anything else. What has given you the idea that I’m not successful. What gave you the idea that I spend a lot of time being unhappy. It seems you entered into this debate with some wild assumptions of your own.
Oh I don’t know Biggirl, maybe because if someone else used the colloquialism they might get acused of being racist. OK for you to use that stuff though eh? Its OK for you to affirm generalizations about blacks because you’re black. Why don’t you hold yourself up to the same light as you hold others dear? I keep harping on it so maybe you can figure out what a terrible thing that is to say about the black people that you are trying to defend. You should be the last person spouting that kind of non sense. Keep on preachin though girl, the biggots will love you for it.
The big difference is that Mr. Blackman is a wino. Winos suffer indignity for being winos. Manute is a celebrity and native of Africa who will tell you that it is great to be black in America. Mostly because he knows it sucks to be in Africa.
Whom ever called you a “fucking nigger” was about as rude and stupid as they come. I hope you would not let that type of behavior reflect on the rest of us non blacks. As far as your speech, I can’t say. Your grammar is fine. Speaking from my own experience, I have to alter my speech in any social setting so people don’t think I have Gomer Pyles IQ. And of course I must watch the Dukes of Hazard every night. I eat grits for breakfast and I go huntin’ everyday. Of course I hate black people and think they should go back to Africa. I must chew tobacco or at least dip snuff and all of my kids are barefoot and dirty. :rolleyes: If you really want to know about the sins of my stupid ass brothers, just read the confederate flag topic on this board. I just want to shake those people and say “the war is over… ahhh like 150 years ago… ahhh you lost.” I just came off a contract job in SC where I was working with a black guy from Chicago. We had never met. After a few days we had a big laugh about all the stupid stuff he was expexting from me. All the stuff I just mentioned about being some kind of dumb ass southern yokel. You are mistaken if you think the preconceptions don’t go both ways.
Biggirl, Insurance companies charge more to insure red cars and young drivers. It is called assigned risk. It is based on calculations of risk. If the bank calculates that more bad debt comes from black people, then black people are assigned risk. It is not just as simple as “well we are gonna charge those black people more interest”. There is a reason. In a perfect world everyone would be given the same credit until proven otherwise. We don’t live in a perfect world. If banker A sees that x times as many black people default on loans as hispanics, that is called a trend. It is real. It is tangible. Not contrived or hateful, but real. It does suck but I can’t change that and the bank can’t either. Only the general population of black people can change that. Enough to make you want to hate being black eh?
You are right here Biggirl. I am in the stop whining camp. I know that there are alot of disparities between the racies but few that can’t be overcome with a little patience and understanding. As far as the stupid insults go, don’t worry, if you weren’t black there would be another reason waiting in line to be called names about. That problem lies with the stupidity and inferiority in others and is beyond our control. As far as your dialect, what the hell does that have to do with your skin color? If you sound stupid, you sound stupid. And finally, again, it is not because you are black and only because you are black that your bank puts you in the bad risk class. Its because you belong to a group that is mathematically calculated as a risk. If the statistician had the groups labeled “group 1” , “group 2” etc. he wouldn’t know what color the bad risk were, just that the group was statistically a bad risk.
Check your own preconceptions. Gangsta speech, street vernacular, or whatever you choose to call it, is a lot more intricate than “24-7”. It also happens to be the speech of white, black, Latino, and Asian youth all across the US of A.
“Slang” is a weak word to descibe the various linguistic markers that denote particular ethnic, sexual, or cultural demarcations in our country.
You are not making any damn sense. How is saying that blacks have to work harder to receive the same respect granted to whites (in general, as I repeatedly disclaim) a slam against blacks? You keep saying how bad it is to have that view, but you haven’t yet explained why it is bad. And more importantly, you haven’t shown why such a view is incorrect. Do that and maybe you’ll be more persuasive.
Got a cite for that assertion? Or are you putting words in another man’s mouth based on what you think he should believe?
I’m also wondering how you know that it sucks to be in Africa. Ever been? It’s a big continent, you know.
If someone else said blacks have to work twice as hard to get half as much they would be considered racist? No. If someone had said whites have to work twice as hard to get half as much, they would have been considered racist? No.
It is not a terrible thing to say about black people. It is the truth. Black people have to work harder just to prove that they have the same IQ as whites. I’m beginning to suspect you do not understand what “having to work harder to get less” means.
As to what all this has to do with whether being harder on black people than white people makes me self-loathing, I have no clue.
Yeah, we all got our shit to deal with. Your shit doesn’t seem to have much of an impact on your racial identity. Mine does. It’ hard not to when strangers call you “fucking nigger” right on your own street corner.
You’re comparing widespread discrimination in banking of a whole segment of people to cars? You can get a different color car. I can’t be a different color. And is there any wonder why blacks are mathematically bad risks? Because we pay more for loans than white people! I’ll stop whining when I no longer have a reason to whine.
Why don’t you explain what you mean by gangsta speech since you apparently know more about its “intricacies” than I do. I’ve already explained what I thought was being communicated by the expression “street talk” (which you assumed was universally understood). So school me on what you are talking about.
Which is exactly why I said this:
Take note that I made no specifications about race or ethnicity. So of course I know that blacks are not the only ones who use “street”.
“Slang” is used to describe words and phrases that depart from standard, formal language. Period. It can spring from distinct segments of the population or it can be a part of the mainstream vernacular. For instance, the word “cool” (meaning great or sophisticated) is a slang term that is not associated with any particular ethnic, regional, or sexual groups in this country. But is this even a relevant point you’re trying to make?
I do not have evidence one way or the other … and neither does she. Or you. Presuming the demographics was the point as it reflects an underlying bias as to what the make-up of this kind of board would be. That Blacks wouldn’t be attracted to this kind of board? That is a self-loathing stereotype methinks.