Your experiences with someone you think is "self-hating"

In My Humble Opinion
1

in a racial/ethnic sense.

I don’t like the term, but sometimes it is apt. I work with someone who I think has issues with her blackness.

For instance, one day I mentioned that I should leave an Essence magazine in the breakroom–since all the other reading literature was targeted to well-to-do white guys–and this coworker said, “Well, I don’t read that stuff. I’m not your average black woman.”

The remark confused me. First of all, Essense isn’t that out in left-field. You don’t have to be full of black militant nationalism to relate to the articles (e.g., “Signs that your man is lying to you.” “Fighting depression naturally.” “Is being a working mother bad?”) Secondly, who is “average” anything? I’m certainly not average, but I like Essence, Ebony, Jet, and all kinds of “black” media. Thirdly, she said this in a snobbish way. Like if you enjoy Essence, then you’re obviously low-class. Or maybe you perpetuate negative stereotypes. I have no idea what she was communicating with that remark.

She has said other things that suggest she has “issues”. Not anything overt, but just strange remarks that maybe I’m the only one that notices, if we’re around white people. If the topic of conversation turns to music, for instance, she’ll talk about how she loves classic rock and absolutely hates rap and hip hop (why people always hasten to add their hatred about stuff when they talk about what they do like, I’ll never know). But I have heard her listening to rap and hip hop in her office before. Another time, we were eating lunch one day at an English-themed pub, and I once casually asked her who her favorite guy from the Beatles is. And she couldn’t name a single one. I pointed out the poster of the Beatles on the wall and it was like she’d never seen them before. How can you love classic rock and not know who the Beatles are? That’s like saying you like classical music but you’ve never heard of Mozart.

It’s really odd being in her company, especially since there aren’t that many black people in our work environment. I’m all for people being individuals and being free-minded, but it’s hard not to see her straining to fit in. I’d like to think I’m comfortable in the ways that I naturally depart from black stereotypes without thinking I have to actively prove that I’m “not one of them.” For instance, I have no problem talking to my white co-workers in AAVE (“You so crazy”) when I’m feeling jovial. When I’ve done this in front of my coworker, she has rolled her eyes.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

2

My grandniece is mixed, but is expected to be white at home. No AAVE, no commenting on her like of black entertainers, no taking care of her hair, no dolls that represent the black half of her. I have made the mistake of buying a black Barbie doll and a nice lotion for her (she is very ashy). Her mother was very upset with me for doing so - hell, the Barbie didn’t even get completely unwrapped before her mother snatched it from her. The lotion was returned with the comment that only ‘those’ people need lotion. Hell, I’m whiter than Casper and need lotion.

This leaves my niece in a sad position. They live in a very diverse neighborhood. She doesn’t fit in with the black students (too white) nor does she fit in with the white students (too black). She ends up acting out in frustration, which her mom blames on her dad (not that my niece has ever met her dad, but that’s a whole other issue). She now entering the happy teenage years, and I fear what will happen to her. I really do feel that being forced to ignore half of who she is, she will really start to rebel. Well, that along with the fact that her mother is a bitch.

3

That’s really sad. You’re in a position to make a great positive impact on her, though, and it’s great you’re more accepting of who she is. Is there a chance you can get her alone (maybe babysitting, or just during a visit) and give her some hair products (or that lotion)?

As to the OP, the black co-workers I have all seem comfortable in their own skin (and all are comfortable switching between “white English” and AAVE depending on the situation). But I’m white, so they might not express those kinds of feelings when I’m around anyway.

4

Gender sense acceptable as well?

I spent some time in Germany under a researcher’s exchange program. I’d gone there fully intending to work on my German, make friends in my own research group, etc., but ran smack into their rejection. These people hated everybody who didn’t live in their own skin (foreigners, people of a different religion or color, people from a different region within Germany), and all of them hated women.

Including the women.

We had one instance where the other woman in my research group said, in front of the so-called “Spaniards table” (which included two Portuguese, a handful of Italians, a Russian professor and two Bavarians, but who’s counting) that “a woman should never be a professor or manage a research team. Women should never be giving orders to anybody.”
The first one to recover from shock was a female Spanish postdoc, who asked “so why the hell are YOU studying for a PhD, if you don’t think women should be allowed to do any of the things a PhD gives access to do? Maybe I’m wrong, but you look to me like a woman!” We never got a response.

The bakers’ children are mixed: Nigerian father, Spanish mother. The second one will call his elder brother “black” like it was an insult, #1 ends up crying, and their parents are too stupid to know how to deal with it; instead of saying “why, yes, you kids are black, and so what?” the mother will berate #2 and the father… the father just ignores anything his kids do, it’s like he thinks his job ended when he got off her.

She also didn’t take the kids to the black-hair hairdressers until a customer pointed out she should, at least to find out whether she needed to use different products than she was. She and her sister cut each other’s hair and it had never occurred to her that maybe, just maybe, supercurly black hair doesn’t need the same treatments as lanky blonde :smack:

5

What the hell?! That’s terrible…it’s…well, it sounds like child abuse.

6

I

:confused: Is the mother white or black?

7

I am from a southern (US) evangelical white family, with all the cultural baggage that this implies (xenophobia, tinge of white superiority, religious fanaticism, rejection of academic achievement, adoration of the military, suppression of women, abominable health and eating habits.

Should I be internalizing my birth culture and learning to love it? This is not a hypothetical question. Actually it’s not even a question. I reject it. In this world there is such a thing as socially regressive cultures that harm people, retard human progress, and have nothing to offer except academic interest. These viruses should be eradicated and the lab samples destroyed.

Of course it’s sad to see someone struggling with the process of rejecting their birth culture. It is awkward, ungraceful, and no doubt seems inauthentic at times. But really, what do you expect someone to do when they recognize that their birth culture is not who they are, or who they want to be?

8

This is a good question and one I had not considered.

I’d guess there’s good and bad about every culture. A self-hating person never embraces the good, but they are always quick to talk about the bad.

A self-hating person would ruin something as innocuous as food. The coworker in the OP, for instance, once told me that she’d absolutely never eat fried chicken at work. To me, this is craziness. Racist people don’t need to see proof of her eating fried chicken to think she’s inferior. They don’t care that all she eats are expensive fruits and exotic cheeses and crudites. If anything, they will hate her more because she draws attention to herself by being a very vocal food snob (who simultaneously complains about how poor she is).

A person can reject the bad stuff without rejecting everything. And they also don’t have to apologize or feel shame either, or denigrate other people whose only mistake is not conforming completely to their arbitrary standards of proper behavior. Why should playful use of AAVE elicit eye-rolls, for instance? She knows I know how to speak “proper” English in the workplace and that I depart from it only infrequently. When someone seems to hate everything about where they came from, that’s when they come off as “self-hating”.

Nava, I don’t know why I left out gender, or sexuality for that matter. I’ve met women before who I’ve suspected of having some issues. Like, women who wear their lack of female friends as a badge of honor and have no problem bashing them, even when others are sitting in on the conversation. They annoy the hell out of me, too.

9

That’s just plain bigotry, when you bash someone else with a stereotype. Does not matter if you’re doing it to your own kind or another. It’s hatred but I wouldn’t call it self-hatred.

10

I’m not in the US so I don’t pretend to have any understanding of the racial dynamics over there. But I wonder if, rather than having any problem with being black, she’s over-fighting against a stereotype - like she’s very aware that there are people who are ready to stereotype black people, and she’s going all out to give the finger to any possibility of that. Kind of like the anti-conformist kid in school who absolutely refuses to admit he likes any chart music, even if he secretly loves it, because he despises the stereotype of the ‘typical teenager’ and wants to undermine it, and he’s determined that no way in hell is anyone going to tag him as that typical teenager.

I think you’re probably right and anyone who’s racist is going to think of her as inferior whether she matches the stereotype or not, but I can see how it would be easy to confuse ‘fighting the stereotype’ with ‘fighting the racism behind the stereotype’.

11

The term self hating is redicilous people like what they like…

12

Not sure if the issue is self-hating behavior, or just a really socially awkward individual. My suspicion is that she either isn’t used to being around other Black people, or has close ties to Black people who engage in stereotypical “hood” behavior. Most people I’ve met who are kind of like this fall into those two camps.

Being a military brat myself I’ve known lots of Black people who came up in different places and were always the “only one.” In college, I met a lot of people like this. But I wouldn’t call them self-hating, just not terribly familiar with the tenets of typical US Black attitudes, customs, and history. Most were nice, knew they didn’t know something that most Black folks did, and either were at peace with being a little different, or wanted to learn more about what they didn’t know.

I can definitely relate. I spent my formative years in the UK, in villages without many other Americans, and I was a bit of a loner… So my radio, TV, and books were very influential growing up. When I arrived in Texas in 1986 listening to a-ha and Police records, reading Sue Townsend books, the very provincial Black folks wanted to call me an Oreo… Only I had a deep knowledge of Black history, grew up around a (mostly) Black extended family, and certainly liked/knew about many Black cultural touchstones. Nobody had more Jackson 5 records than me. So that was more those folks’ ignorance and closed mindedness. Yes, it was possible to be a Smiths and Depeche Mode fan and not be ashamed of one’s Blackness!

I’ve also known a number of Black folks who were extremely bougie, were always turning up their noses at stuff like hip hop, and liked to talk a lot of shit about how lazy and trifling Black people were. Now I know when that’s coming out of a place of love, like when Chris Rock mocks trifling ass negroes, and when it’s more vitriolic than that. The handful I’ve gotten to know tend to come from backgrounds or communities where there were a lot of trifling people around - most likely in their family - and this was some kind of crazy reaction formation from that experience.

Keep in mind this was in college though, when we were all dealing with our identity development, from 18-21 or so. I had a pretty solidly Black/Brown social network in grad school, and we used to always talk about our common Black experiences (getting whuppins, various hair management disasters, and yes, reading Jet/Ebony [the former for the Beauty of the Week among the fellas]) as well as the experiences in integrated or all-White settings. One discussion we had was who had the most “White” music collection. Of course I won, with The Carpenters being pointed out as the Whitest CD I had - even the cover was white. :slight_smile:

This lady sounds a little old to be on that college identity formation tip. She sounds a little off, TBH. At this stage in life I don’t give a good goddamn if you hear me listening to Ice Cube or Wham! I like both and admit to such. I can’t imagine what kind of baggage someone would have to say they hated rap, but then be listening to it in the office, or claiming to be down with classic rock and not know the Beatles’ names.

13

This is the situation I was in. There were several pretty uncomfortable times in college when people tried to find common ground with me over “common black experiences” and my only point of reference was what I’d seen on TV. It’s sounds like **monstro’s ** is more plugged into the culture though and she’s just pretending not to be. Maybe she falls into your second category.

I had a teenage cousin who was very upset about being half black, which is pretty much what anyone would have predicted for a kid whose mom only got involved with a black guy to annoy her parents.

14

The same thing happened to me in college.
But during that time I figured out who I was (well, to the extent that anyone does) and that I was ok with being that person and that I was ok with other people being who they were as well.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that some people who I met back then thought I was self-hating. Truthfully, though, they didn’t know me well enough to make that kind of assessment.

15

I’m not completely sure I follow the OP and, if I do, I’m not sure I agree with the classification of the individual. Does this person secretly like a lot of things associated with black culture but then deny it? It sounds more to me like she just doesn’t associate with things that are commonly associated with being black.

If someone is black, do they have to like rap and hip-hop? Maybe she specifically says she doesn’t like it because she doesn’t want people jumping to conclusions about her music tastes just because of the color of her skin. Or as far as the Beatles go, I love a lot of classic rock, but I hate the Beatles; I’m able to name all of them, but it took me a bit of thinking. Hell, I can’t even name all of the members of any of my favorite bands, though I can name members in the band that I specifically admire.

I dated a girl about a year ago for a couple months who had a white mother and a black father and both of her parents’ families had disowned them because of the interracial thing. So they made a real effort to raise their kids in a more generic American culture precisely because they didn’t like that sort of racist thing. That she wasn’t into stereotypically black things wasn’t a sign that she hated her race, just that she didn’t identify with black culture specifically, even if to most people they would have just thought of her as black.

Of couse, I could be overreaching with drawing the similarity, but I just wanted to present that as a possibility.

16

I’m wondering if these two quotes might be just a bit ironic.

Regards,
Shodan

17

IMO, the thing that distinguishes hatred from self-hatred is shame. The shame aspect is what makes someone go out of their way to disavow something, as though someone is pointing fingers at them.

So you’ll see women who feel it necessary to trash talk “girlie things” every chance they get. (In its milder forms, you’ll see women who, when talking about their more feminine interests, often close with a “…but I also like sports and wall climbing” kind of comment, almost as if they need to offer evidence of being a reasonable person or something.)

Or you’ll see a closeted gay person broadcasting homophobic beliefs with a vehemence most straight people are unable to muster, due to a lack of give-a-damn.

Or you’ll see a black person going out their way to castigate or separate themselves from black culture.

I get the feeling that the person monstro is talking goes out her way to disavow certain things, even when those things aren’t specifically the subject of conversation. If the subject is “Music You Like”, and people are talking about their love of 80’s pop, new age rock, or grunge, monstro’s coworker is the type who has to let everyone know that she hates hip hop and R&B. It’s not enough that she simply say she’s a fan of classic rock. I consider that a sign of not being comfortable with one’s identity, because people who are secure with themselves aren’t troubled by the idea that someone might think they like hip hop.

monstro, I haven’t been exposed to many people like your co-worker, but I have met a few women who get on my nerves with their “girls suck!” attitudes.

18

Same here, word for word.

I have to confess, if someone told me they were bringing in Jet magazine (or even People), I’d probably be thinking “…alright,” not that I’d launch into a speech about it, but pretending not to like hip hop because you’re afraid people will assume you only like hip hop doesn’t sound like a normal thing to do. You could set the people who silently made that assumption straight by talking about the Alternative songs you like when the topic comes up.

19

That’s the funny thing, though! I’m totally not! I’m the whitest black chick around (I say tongue-in-cheekly). It’s not like I’m a walking stereotype myself. If there’s anyone who could identify with being an “outsider”, it would be me–the black girl who croons to David Bowie and can’t dance to save her life. (Or do the cobra thing with the neck either).

I certainly don’t go around checking people’s negro cards. I’ve had mine checked a few times, by people of both races, and I find it incredibly annoying. No, my problem isn’t that she doesn’t like “black” things. It’s that she seems to go out of her way to talk about her dislike of black things. As if black things are inherently bad or as if she’s afraid people are constantly viewing her as “one of them”. There’s no reason to say, in a conversation about musical preferences, “Oh, I love classic rock! But I hate rap!” It’s like saying, “Oh, I love heavy metal! But I hate reggae!” It just screams: “I just have to remind you that I’m not like other black people, just in case you forgot!”

She’s really the first person that I’ve ever encountered that has rubbed me in this particular way, race-wise.

The explanation that Hippy offered about people coming across this way if they’ve had negative experiences seems likely. She often talks about how hard it was growing up poor and in the projects, with an uneducated single mother. She probably did not grow up with many positive black influences, or at least ones that she would have liked to have been around. Which is sad. I just wish she’d relax, though.

20

Sorry, I actually meant to type “**monstro’s ***coworker *is more plugged into the culture though and she’s just pretending not to be.” as a reference to her rocking out to hip hop then acting like she’s not a fan.

:smack: