I’m really into vintage military aircraft. While watching a DVD today about a restored Japanese fighter plane from WWII, I realized I was glorifying a weapon responsible for many deaths.
My interest is in unique and historic aircraft, workmanship, engineering creativity, and also how effective they were at their mission. But that mission doesn’t have to be combat. I’m just as interested in a T-6 (military trainer) as a P-51 Mustang (a hugely effective weapon).
So where does this place me ethically? I don’t own a warbird aircraft, although I certainly would if I were able. Is it wrong of me to perpetuate the glorification of a weapon, even if it is an airplane that is otherwise just a great piece of engineering?
(My use of the term “gun nut” in this thread denotes one who has a fascination with guns to the point of extreme, as I do about airplanes. I consider such people often, but not always, a bit loopy and ethically questionable.)
Seems harmless now. Soon you’ll like Me-262s, MiG-15s, F-16s. You’ll move on to the harder stuff, B-17s, B-52s. I’ve seen people freaked out on stealth.
Already there. Here’s how bad it is - I’m giving serious thought on my next vacation to taking a ride in a MiG-15 in New Mexico. Obscene amount of money.
Seriously, I’m starting to feel bad about this. MiG-15’s and P-51’s killed a lot of people…
Pay your couple of hundred bucks, and take a flight on a B-17. B17.org has the info and schedule. To view the world from the bombardier’s position in the nose is well worth the price.
The Japanese Zero…The gateway addiction to more serious collector addictions like the SuperSaber and Thunderchief.
Collectors collect for their tangible evidence of history. You are nowhere near a gun nut even in the ethical sense. Let us know if you get an ME-109. I’d love to get into one of those!
I find that there’s nothing unethical about either owning guns or enjoying the various shooting sports. Even collecting various firearms just because you happen to like them for aesthetic reasons (I have a few that fall neatly into that category).
I rather object to the suggestion that gun collectors as a group are somehow unethical, as if by association, regardless of the historical use of firearms by people and/or nations.
Contrary to popular misconception amongst non-gun owners, this isn’t a “one gun for all occasions” kinda world. As such, there is also nothing inherently unethical about owning multiple firearms for different purposes (hunting, target, self/home defense, etc.,).
I feel no ethical onus to eschew my hobby because of the unethical actions of a handfull of others; YMMV.
If so, take up stamp collecting. I almost recommended coin collecting, but I’m sure someone here on the SDMB would have a hissy fit and accuse a coin collector of “perpetuating and glorifying the capitalist patriarchy that has brought untold suffering to billions and billions of human beings,” or some other similar drivel.
Come to think of it, you might also catch hell for stamp collecting (although for the life of me, I can’t even begin to conceive of how or why that might be).
You can find many things a lot worse than vintage aircraft to admire and collect (assuming you have the big$$$$ to do so; I don’t so I settle for Armour, and Model Power’s Postage Stamp Airplane Collectibles), without equating yourself to Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany for doing so.
Ya, but just wait until Gassendi discovers the world of WW2 reenactment RC plane events, complete with dogfights, carrier landings, and dive bombing. His poor pocketbook will never forgive him…
Has no one else heard that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it? I think we need more military history buffs, not fewer Just 'coz you’re interested in it doesn’t mean you think we should do it again; probably more the opposite, especially since you’re thinking about it…
Aw, c’mon. If you want to see it that way, it’s equally valid to state that Fords and Chevys have “killed a lot of people.” Throw in those evil Budweisers and Marlboros. Oh, and McDonald’s cheeseburgers too.
Yes, there’s a difference – MiG-15s and P-51s were specifically designed as weapons for the purpose of killing, if not people, then other aircraft (and, one would assume. the people in those aircraft). That notwithstanding, there’s nothing immoral or weird about admiring the obvious beauty of the classic warbirds.
Collectors and admirers of militaria number in the millions. I myself am proud to be one. (Pleased to meetcha! )
Somebody mentioned the Japanese Zero – are there any left? I attended an air show some years back in Lorain, OH, that featured a faux Zero that used sheet-metal panels covering a Canadian-made trainer to replicate the real thing. The plaque on the apron in front of the plane claimed that it had been used in the filming of “Tora! Tora! Tora!” because there were NO Zero’s left.
[ASIDE]Same show – got to see a P-51 and an F-15 do three photo passes side-by-side. The Mustang was flying its guts out, while the Eagle was dragging its tail a bit, but I’ll never forget it.[/ASIDE]
And Brutus, thanks for the URL to the B-17 thing! I’ll be flying in one in August out of Lunken Airport in Cincy.
I believe there is just one left. The Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, CA has it. According to the DVD I just watched it was captured in 1944 and brought to the states for testing (Charles Lindbergh flew it once!). It was restored to flyable condition in the 70’s.
Not only is it the only authentic Zero I’m aware of, it has the original engine!
They took it on a tour of Japan in the 70’s or 80’s. That must have been strange for the Japanese - to have Americans bring over the only remaining example of one of their airplanes.
As far as this thread, I mostly feel OK. As has been stated, these planes do have inherent beauty, and that’s what I’m interested in. But I think I will always be mindful of the violence done with them as weapons in the past.
Yes, inasmuch anybody who is fascinated with anything to the point of extreme is unethical and loopy.
With all due respect, your assertion that gun ownership is some how immoral makes me question your knowledge or your character. Your idea that another’s behavior reflects on one’s self makes me wonder if perhaps you don’t need to do some serious meditating on morality and ethics.
I have an interest in the Great War- things like the Sopwith Camel or Fokker Triplane. But to the extent that they interest me, not that if I had one I would start trying to kill people with them (if I could even fly one). Don’t be alarmed. I would not ever want to replicate the wholesale slaughter of the Great War.
When I told my ex-father in law about my SCA hobby, a buddy of his laughed his ass off, making fun of me and asked if I was planning on getting into WWI recreation next, living in a muddy trench for a few weeks. Barrel of laughs, that guy.
[/hijack]
I collect (or am trying to) Soviet era firearms. I find the history and look of them appealing. I find the functionality and mystique of all weapons fascinating.
However, I would no more take my SKS and go shooting up the streets than I would expect you to climb into a Mustang and go do straffing runs on rush hour traffic. It’s a hobby. Collecting guns is no different than collecting stamps, or photography.
It is the only authentic Zero that is both flyable and has the original engine. From what I could tell from a quick look around the web there are a few others around, at the Smithsonian, Imperial War Museum, Auckland War Memorial Museum, Royal Air Force Museum Cosford, and the JASDF Hamamatsu Base. There may be others as well.
Just 'coz you’re interested in it doesn’t mean you think we should do it again; probably more the opposite, especially since you’re thinking about it…
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