There is a difference between involved and control. You want to do the latter, and you seriously risk having your daughters resent you for it.
So instead of offering a safe place for them to explore their sexuality and to mature, you will force them to sneak around, hide behind your back and grow up on their own rather than with the support of their father. They might experience shame and trust issues, because the one man who is supposed to support them would rather impose archaic standards than respect them.
I would consider this to be the behaviour of an annoying control freak. I simply wouldn’t tell you what I wanted to order and I would do it myself, regardless of your wishes. If you have no respect for me, I would have none for you.
Huh, really. I have no issues with bengangmo’s approach to ordering. It may be a bit old fashioned, but I’ve seen it done smoothly, usually in family situations. It seemed respectful to all and downright pleasant for the wait staff. I’m not sure why you’d choose this particular hill to die on.
Well, it depends on whether the other people at the table are okay with it. Even children should be given the respect of speaking for themselves if they choose to.
I think it depends on the place. If it’s a Chinese place or Buca di Beppo or one of those other places where people are expected to share dishes, I have no problem with it. But I’m quite capable of ordering my own steak, thank you very much.
If it’s only me and someone else, I would be bothered by the assumption that I can’t/shouldn’t order something myself, and it’s not like 2 people are a hassle for the waitstaff. What if there are supplementary questions - does that get relayed through the control person, or can I answer them directly myself?
If there are more people, then it might simply things for the waitress, but increases the odds of a mistake being made by the controlling person. Again, I’d like to be able to communicate my choices myself, so that there are fewer chances for miscommunication. If I receive the wrong thing or there’s something else wrong with my order, I want to be able to speak directly to the wait staff about it, rather than explain and negotiate with the person placing the entire order. It’s my food, let me decide how I want it and deal with it.
I somehow get the feeling that this person wouldn’t want it to be the other way around - I’m not sure they’d want me to order for them, so why should I just accept it?
It’s not so much a “hill to die on” as something that would annoy me and I’d simply avoid the situation, either by placing the order myself or never having a meal with the controlling person ever again.
Usually, yes. But there can certainly be exceptions, no? And I don’t wish to imply gender differences, but experiential differences.
I went on a first date for the first time in more than a decade a few months ago (I’m recently divorced, FWIW). The lady and I met through an online service, and we had spoken for several weeks. I knew that she was open to new dining experiences, was rather pedestrian in experience, and that she really disliked spicy food. I spent a lot of time researching restaurants in her area, reading reviews, and gathering other feedback. I discovered that there was an exquisite Thai restaurant very close to her house, but she had never gone because she equated “Thai” with “spicy”. Knowing that Thai restaurants have a variety of dishes that aren’t spicy, I made reservations there.
She was nervous when we arrived. We looked over the menu and as expected, there were a range of dishes spanning “no heat” to “white-people hot” to “Thai-hot"). I helped her read the menu, and made suggestions at her request. When the server came I placed my order, but she became tongue-tied with the unfamiliar terminology. So I ordered for her.
Pillory me now. I’ve obviously imposed a patriarchal hegemony upon my date(s). Dear heavens! I’ve treated a prospective romantic partner with the same consideration I would a friend!
But yeah, I get what you’re saying. The assumption that one should be ordered for is reprehensible. Still, there are exceptions.
Just because a parent wants to meet the boy their daughter dates doesn’t mean they want to scare them. Aside from common courtesy can you imagine if he didn’t bring her home and not being able to even describe the boy or know who his parents were or where he lived to tell the police? Sure, that’s a longshot, but what if? But it’s more than that too. Any boy that won’t come in not only hasn’t had a good upbringing but lacks a backbone. Why would I want my daughter to wind up with a coward? Cowards don’t grow to be men. They grow to be big cowards. I wanted a son in law with the spine to meet life with all it’s scarey situations and stand up for those he cares for. I got it too, heart, brain, and the courage to use them.
Is this ordering stuff all about one person talking to the waiter, ordering what everyone at the table has requested, or is it about the archaic practice of the man selecting the dishes?
I have been married for 14 years - I can answer most questions that will come up as regards my wife’s choices,
My wife likes me to do this
I am one of the least “controlling” people you will ever meet
When we are in a Chinese restaurant, my wife does all of the ordering, after asking me what I want to eat, so when we are in an “english speaking” restaurant, I do the reverse
I have a pretty decent memory and don’t have a problem of remembering or ordering for 6 or 7 different people (or more)
We very often share entres (3 or 4) rather than order a main meal each
At the end of the day - this works for the people I hang out with. It’s not a big deal, if you wanna order go ahead, if I get the cue that you are comfortable with me doing it, then I will. And I will also chase the waiter down if you want anything extra (do note, around here, we don’t have one waiter per table, but flag down a passing uniform clad warm body - which also makes it easier because I’ll know everything, while the waiter may not)
And to your earlier comment - I view having a sexual relationship as an adult thing - I won’t condone it until you are having all the responsibility of an adult.
I KNOW for a fact that my kids probably won’t wait until marriage to get laid, and I won’t make it difficult for them, but that doesn’t mean I need to openly support it. I willl “close one eye” - and were I to catch my kid at it, there won’t be screaming or ranting, just a reinforcement that she should keep herself safe, only do what she wants to do, and that people will only respect her as much as she respects herself.
Plus, half the fun at that age is getting one over on the parents.
I would never, ever, even consider telling another person what to eat.
If they are unfamiliar to a restaurant (or style of food) I will make the OFFER to order what we like, if the other party is comfortable - but it is just that - an offer.
I’ve got a friend, who was a real hound dog in his single days, and when his first born turned out to be a boy, he would go on and on about teaching him all the tricks to picking up women. Then the gods got annoyed with him and sent him a daughter.
Like most things, when your buttons are being pushed it means your buttons are being pushed and you are really the best person to figure out why. Once you do, and you resolve it, your buttons will no longer be pushable.
All to say, never bothered me in the slightest. Because I see it for everything that it is, and it’s all ok. Dad can want to remain his little girl’s hero, keep her little, hang on to his youth and his personal power, etc. etc. All pretty standard stuff, and to the extent that any of it can be perceived as in any way insulting, the best way to avoid perpetuating anything about it is to own your power.
That’s a whole lot of assumptions and biases piled on top of each other. In any case, if we’re talking about teenagers who are just getting to know each other, it just might not be a good time to meet people’s parents. They should be allowed to work out for themselves when and if they want to start introducing their family members.
At the point that your daughter is thinking about whom she might marry, you don’t get to force your opinion on what kind of son-in-law you want.
I think this is spot-on. My mom had a little plaque hanging on her wall as I was growing up, very '70s kitsch, that said
“The best thing that a father can do for his daughters
is to love their mother.”
Trite, perhaps, but I think there’s a lot of truth in it.
Look, I’m not saying that having a baby (or an abortion) is an identical experience for men and women. Being a woman, and having personally experienced both, I am totally 100% in agreement that usually, they are both far more emotionally difficult for the woman because she is the one who is physically involved. And in the case of a teen mom, she’s far more likely to be ostracized for getting pregnant, while the teen dad is far more likely to be admired for it, or at very least, have it be a non-issue.
And I will also readily agree that, if a girl decides to go through with having the baby, she’s far less likely to later decide to skip out and let the dad take care of it than the other way around, although that does happen. So if I have a daughter who gets pregnant and keeps the baby, the chances are far greater that she will be stuck doing most or all of the work, than if I had a son who got someone else pregnant. My son would have to do 50% of the parenting - I would see to it - but it’s unlikely he’d have to do it all himself.
But whether you’re the one bearing the child or not, and whether you’re caring for it with the other parent’s help or not, the fact remains that, boy or girl, you are now a parent, for the rest of your life. Being a single teen parent is significantly harder than having the other parent’s help, but that doesn’t mean that doing it together is no big deal. In my opinion, both prospects really, really suck, to a degree that it seems almost silly to me to compare them. So I am just as concerned about the possibility of my son getting someone else pregnant, and probably having to do “only” 50% of the parenting, as I would be about my theoretical daughter getting pregnant, and possibly having to do 100% of the parenting.
And I would hope most responsible parents would agree with me. Unless you’re okay with the idea of your son being an absentee father and just paying child support, you should be just as concerned about his sexual activity as you are about your daughter’s. So, my point is, if this were true, I’d expect to hear just as much of this “dad/daughter” attitude directed at sons (and by mothers) as well. And since I don’t, I tend to assume that some parents are okay with their sons being absentee fathers, and/or it’s not really just about the fear pregnancy for some dads, but about, as Stoid said, wanting to “remain his little girl’s hero, keep her little, hang on to his youth and his personal power, etc. etc.” All of which is eyeroll inducing. Not necessarily creepy, though I’ve certainly seen it go there, but, at least (as per the OP) annoying.
Back during the Whoopi era of Hollywood Squares, the question was,“What’s the most important thing a father can do for his children?” Answer,“Love their mother.”
I haven’t read the thread, but I may be one of the fathers that annoys you.
We have two daughters, ages 14 and 12. Neither is allowed to have a “boyfriend,” let alone go on a date. And they’re not allowed to get their ears pierced until they’re adults (assuming they even want them pierced). I will allow them to go to dances once they’re in HS, but I won’t allow them to go on an un-chaperoned date until they’re over 18.
I’ve made the same joke, and so has my ex, and we’re both female. I’ve heard loads of other mums say it too. It’s always clearly a joke, an exaggeration.
I don’t get it. You’re acknowledging that there are some major differences - only girls can be pregnant, go into labour, have an abortion or breastfeed - and then acting like teenage Dads have the same experience as teenage Mums?
Also, if the teen Dad sees his kid once a week and hands over a proportion of his money, he will be praised as a great Dad. A teen Mum who did that would be vilified. We do not live in an equal world.
You apparently do not grasp what seems the SDMB Rule Of Families that a lot of posters seem to assume - the more involved a father is in his children’s lives, the more messed up they will be. I’m not sure where this idea got started, since it is pretty much the opposite of true, but maybe posters (especially those who don’t have children) don’t understand the difference between “involvement” and “control”.
I’m not specifically endorsing your rules, but that’s not my business anyway. Children need boundaries and instruction, and they need discipline until it becomes self-discipline.
I would have said that was common sense, but apparently not.
