Ambivalent about the death penalty

I was listening to the radio on the long trip from Phoenix, and there was naturally much coverage of the Scott Peterson verdict. This thread is not about that verdict, but about capital punishment in general.

Once upon a time I was in favour of capital punishment. I believed it was a deterrent, and I felt that murderers should be treated to the same outcome as their victims. But many years ago I started thinking about the issue. I’m now (generally) opposed to capital punishment. Why?

First, what is the purpose of punishment? Is it to ‘teach a lesson’? Is it to remove dangerous people from the general population? Is it vengence? Is it rehabilitation? I believe that the purpose of punishment for a crime should be to rehabilitate people who are able to be rehabilitated. It should be to remove dangerous people from society for as long as they are a danger to society. There should be an element of punishment as a negative incentive for wrongdoing. But revenge seems out of place to me.

Someone who is committed to life in prison without the possibility of parole is removed from society, and can no longer harm society. Capital punishment does the same thing; but it requires what is, after all, homicide. So killing a prisoner and keeping him locked up until he dies both accomplish the same thing. The difference is that the latter does not require the premeditated killing of someone.

One may ask what the point of rehabilitation is, if the presoner will never be released. I’ve seen documentaries on Death Row inmates who have been awaiting execution for many years. Some have found religion, to which CP supporters might say, ‘He found religion? Then jerk him to Jesus!’ But some have had the time to evaluate what they have done. Someone who was under the influence of drugs, committed a murder or murders, and was convited and sentenced to die is probably not the same person after sitting in contemplation in a relatively drug-free environment for several years. I was a different person 20 years ago than I am now. People change. If, psychologically, a person is not the same person who committed the crime, then it seems wrong to me that he should be executed.

Someone who has changed in prison, though he will never be released, can serve a valuable function to society. He can serve as an example to others as to why they should think about the consequences of their actions. Certainly one could point to an executed criminal and say, ‘See what happens if you commit this crime? You’ll be dead!’ But I think it’s more effective to have the convict himself deliver the message.

I think the idea that capital punishment is an effective deterrent is overblown. California has over 600 inmates on Death Row. Only about ten have been executed over the last 15 years. I’ve heard that there’s a 50% chance that a death sentence will be overturned on appeal. If the death penalty stands a good chance of never being imposed, then it’s meaningless. If you’re going to do it, then do it; otherwise stop the expensive, court-clogging, time-consuming appeals and abolish capital punishment.

Okay, I’ve just said ‘If you’re going to do it, then do it.’ Anyone see the problem with that? Aside from the visceral discomfort of executing two prisoners a day in California alone, there is the problem of executing an innocent person. How many people have been sitting on Death Row, and have been ultimately found to be innocent? A few. Some people say that’s too bad. They object to the idea that ‘It’s better to let 100 murderers go free, than to execute a single innocent person.’ They misunderstand the idea. It’s not ‘letting a murderer go free’; it’s not killing him, but keeping him locked up for life. That is, ‘It’s better to keep 100 killers locked up for the rest of their lives, than to execute a single innocent person.’ Not ‘let them free’. And for some, death may be a release. I think it would be worse to live with the memories of the crime, knowing that you’ll never breathe free air again, than to just end it.

And one must ask about the number. Is saving one innocent life worth not killing 100 absolutely-100%-no-doubt-about-it vicious killers? Or is it one in a thousand? Or one in ten? Where do you draw the line? I think that no innocent life should be taken by the State. Again, the guilty ones are already removed from the general population.

My whole life, when I thought about it, I’ve said that I would not kill someone who was not attacking me or someone else. If someone was coming at me with a weapon, or, in some cases I can think of, without a weapon, I would use deadly force to defend myself. If someone else is being attacked, I see no problem with using deadly force to stop him. But the idea is to stop the person, not to kill him.

Now let’s say I’m on a jury that is hearing a capital case, and the person is convicted. We sentence him to death, and the sentence is carried out. What this means is that I have participated in the premeditated killing of someone who was not attacking me. That violates the beliefs that I stated in the last paragraph.

But some people ‘need killing’. Suppose there is someone who is Timpthy McVeigh, Osama bin Laden, Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Pol Pot all rolled into one person. Let’s say that this person is The Worst, Most Dangerous Criminal In The History Of The World. If I were on the jury, I would vote for the death sentence. That makes me a hypocrite, since I’d be participating in the premeditated killing of someone who was not attacking me. It makes me a hypocrite because of all of the things I’ve said earlier.

And when I hear of someone being executed, someone whose guilt is without any doubt and whose crime is heinous, I don’t really have any qualms about it. That makes me a coward, because I will have condoned the actions of a jury for doing something that I would not have done. Yeah, I’m a hypocrite and a coward.

I think there’s also a ‘creepiness factor’ as well. It gives me the willies thinking about someone who has exhausted all of their appeals, sitting in a cell and knowing the day and the hour of his death. It creeps me out to think of the final walk to the execution chamber, and knowing that the prisoner knows that he’s spending his last minutes alive. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were like the old days, when the crime is fresh and the convicted is ‘the same person who committed the crime’ (though a day or a week after conviction is still a long time in one’s head); but it’s still creepy.

And then there’s the idea of the State killing someone. While most people on Death Row probably deserve to be there, it seems to me to be too convenient for the State to execute people for political reasons. Should the Rosenburgs have been executed? I don’t think so. I think that their executions were political killings. Should Bruno Hauptman have been executed? There seems to be evidence that he was just ‘in the wrong place at the wrong time’. He may have been innocent. But the public were outraged at the crime, and they wanted blood – anybody’s blood. While not political in the same way as the Rosenburgs, it does seem to have political overtones in that the execution may have been carried out to placate outraged constituents.

So I’m somewhat ambivalent. I agree that some people just ‘need killing’; but I do not agree that this ‘need’ should be met at the expense of a small number of people who may not have committed a crime. What it comes down to, for me, is this: We can execute people, or not. If we execute people, there must be absolutely no possibility that they are innocent. There must be no mitigating circumstances. The crime must be particularly heinous. There’s the rub. What’s ‘particularly heinous’? The attacks on September 11th would, in my mind, qualify. But where do you draw the line? Is ‘particularly heinous’ the killing of 100 people? 50? Ten? Two? One, if there is torture involved? The display of callousness? ‘Having a sharp tongue’ (as was demonstrated recently in the Middle East, when a 16-year-old girl was hanged)? People will ‘draw the line’ in different places, and any line will necessarily be arbitrary. If it’s arbitrary, then I feel that it’s not valid.

So yes, some people deserve to die at the hands of the State. Nevertheless, I am opposed to capital punishment. The ‘line that must not be crossed’ must be arbitrary. We can point to extreme cases and say, ‘Yes. Death is a fair punishment.’ We can say that in certain cases drawing and quartering, the body fed to hogs, and the head mounted on a pike would be the only suitable punishment. But most cases are not extreme, and we’re back to where to draw the line.

Thus, I think we should abolish the death penalty. There are too many variables to make a ‘one size fits all’ law that we Americans are so fond of. There are too many possibilities for a mistake. There are too many opportunities for politics to enter into the equation. And it’s creepy.

People confuse me when they hold human life, even those convicted of heinous crimes, in such high regard and yet they are atheists. I have never figured out that position. Humans do not have a lock on “scared” life-forms and to hold that position is biological arrogance.

My position of capital punishment is this:

  1. People that commit capital crimes are the equivalent of vermin much like the coyotes that kill farmer’s livestock. They serve no purpose other than to hurt others and make the overall system less efficient. They need to be killed in the same way that you kill a wasp. You do not put a wasp on a jar on your mantle to let it live out the rest of its life in isolation.

  2. Some people say that capital punishment is “cruel and unusual”. However, some say that life imprisonment is worse. I don’t know if it is worse to commit someone to death or lock them in a Supermax prison cell 23 hours a day.

  3. Everyone is going to die so it is not as though you killed an omnipotent being.

  4. Many victims and/or their families like to see the criminal executed. The execution serves a useful purpose for those hurt in ways that life imprisonment may not.

  5. Saying that severe punishment is not a deterrent is not a true statement for some people. I can promise you that there are several people that I would kill if it were not against the law and I knew I didn’t have to face consequences. You have to define the degree of deterrence based on the sentence and I have never seen that. Capital punishment may or may not be a deterrence for heinous crimes but you cannot know because the people that decide not to commit them based on that are unknown by definition.

I’ll confess to rethinking the death penalty lately.

While I still believe that the state has the legal and moral right to impose it, as it is currently consituted it is such a pain in the ass to implement that it is more or less useless. A typical death row inmate will likely die of natural causes before he ever reaches the death chamber.

I’ll agree that, as currently constituted, it probably is not a deterrent. The vague possibility that I might stand a 10% chance of being executed 20 years down the road probably does not weigh very heavily on my mind as I contemplate committing a capital crime. Were it more certain and sooner, it might well be otherwise.

So, why bother?

The punishment of death for murderers is commensurate, IMO, on the value you place on life. Not the life of the murderer, but of the murdered. By not issuing the harshest sentence, you are saying that the murderer deserves to live while the murdered do not. Thus, the society that does not kill killers holds that the value of life is greater for the murderer [the one who holds no value of life for others], than that of the victim.

The biggest problem I have with the DP is the fact that our system if flawed, and the conviction of an innocent person terrifies me.

If the issue were only about “deserving” or not… it might be quite simple. Few people would prefer a living serial homicidal maniac… but… but… what if they are innocent ? Human judgement is prone to mistakes.

The way the death penalty has been handled in the US is very far from perfect or ideal… and the punishment is irreversible. A dead innocent is still dead.

Plus locking 'em up for life is much more punisment in my view… and cheaper. From what I’ve read the death penalty legal costs is more expensive than just keeping the guy in jail for life. The end result is society is safe anyway.

Finally I would argument that only the most backward cultures and nations still have the death penalty. In many ways its barbaric and backward IMO. I know the Death Penalty is an electoral issue in the US… but being in the Death Penalty club puts the US with some of the worst human rights abusers and dictatorships in the planet.

How do you reconcile the fact that locking people up for life is much greater punishment than the death penalty yet you call the U.S. backwards? By that logic, we should execute all prisoners sentenced to life imprisionment to death in order to be a more gentle nation.

Why do you think that humans are “better” than other species and are somehow more valuable than other species that we put to death every day including domestic pets? That seems to require a belief in a human divine purpose. (That is an honest question for everyone, not just you.)

No you’re not, anymore than you’re saying the same thing by not “killing” earthquakes and cancer. All you’re saying is that taking life is wrong, period. It’s not OK to take the life of someone you don’t like, even if you have a reason; otherwise, in what way is society different than those who kill for money or pleasure? They have their reasons too.

–Cliffy

Humans are more valuable than other species simply because it’s our species. There are other considerations, of course, like we are the most dominant species in the planet, but, it really boils down to self-interest. From your statement, I’m wondering if you’re endorsing cannibalism, slavery, etc. By somehow equating the value of a human life with that of domestic pets, there’s a tacit endorsement of these as well. (i.e. we kill animals for food, we use animals for mechanical work, etc.)

Well I’m an atheist and I don’t think humans are that much more special… but in a purely logical thinking… killing innocent people is bad… and locking them up is cheaper. I never mentioned “life” or “sacred”. I do not necessarily want to treat people more “humanely” by shooting/eletrocuting/hanging or poisoning them.

I am going to make up my own theory here:

Humans have something called “utility”. Utility means that the person has a contribution to make themselves or society. For normal people this means working and supporting a family. People that commit normal crimes may still have positive utility. They hope to get out of prison one day and may even take classes to make themselves better. They may also have enough remorse to apologize to the victim’s family and make a positive contribution.

People committed of a heinous crime automatically have an extreme negative amount of utility. They are already going to spend their lives in prison. There is nothing they can do to increase it besides ceasing to exist. Therefore, maximizing utility for these people means executing them so that the victim and/or family can finally see a positive return from the crime.

I have still never figured out why people that are atheists give a special, divine place for human life. Can anyone tell me why this is logically?

I agree that execution is an inefficient process. I would propose a one appeal rule where defendants are executed within days after the loss of that appeal.

What is the ‘positive return’? Killing the convict does not bring the victim back, and there is a definite cost in terms of time and money spent on appeals. Also, once an inmate is dead, there is no punishment. He’s dead, and he can’t feel it. While he’s alive, he has to sit and consider how he wound up in a cell.

And what of people who were wrongly convicted? There have been cases of people who were convicted and lost their appeals, and then were found to be innocent; for example, when DNA proves they could not have committed the crime. What of them? ‘Too bad. We made a mistake.’? You can’t reverse an execution, but you can release an innocent man and attempt to make it up to him.

Since religion has been brought into it: ‘Vengeance is mine,’ sayeth the Lord. And ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill.’ I’m not a religious person, but I’ve never heard ‘“Vengeance is mine,” sayeth the Lord, “Unless you feel it’s your job.”’ or ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill, unless you feel it’s expedient to do so.’

Yes, this should always be the overriding factor - protection of the innocent.

To a certain extent, yes (use of the loaded term “vengeance” notwithstanding). If people increasingly feel that justice is lacking and the victims suffer far more than the criminals, society will break down and vigilanteism will increase.

Apart from not recognizing the possibility of escape (unusual, but unlike the claims made for execution of the innocent, easily demonstrated), I think you are forgetting the society behind the walls. The homicidal inmate who need not fear the death penalty can take out his rage on fellow inmates and guards. And you cannot keep someone in solitary confinement indefinitely to prevent this, as it will likely be construed as cruel and unusual punishment.