America,all fur coat and no panties.

In My Humble Opinion
41

Emergency care only is not health care, it is emergency care until stabilized and discharged until the next emergency. I would cheerfully trade my expensive insurance for your anecdotal long lines of the UK. Interesting that every major developed country in the world is satisfied with those long lines. And my insurance made me wait four months for necessary open heart surgery despite the pleas from my doctors. The anecdotes of people with insurance in the US are a lot worse than the anecdotes from people in the UK.

And I don’t really notice that our Congress members and Senators much mind having socialized health care for themselves and their families what with those awful anecdotal lines and rationing and all.

42

The reality of health care in the UK regarding heart surgery is more like 12 months:
**
Reasons for Heart Surgery Abroad
Without doubt the biggest factors in choosing to travel abroad for heart surgery are waiting times for NHS treatments and cost of private treatment. Many people rightly feel that waiting 12 months to have heart surgery with the NHS is simply too long.

Many people who have heart problems are in constant pain that only surgery can relieve. NHS patients have to endure long waiting times only to find that the surgery has been cancelled at the last minute; by having heart surgery abroad waiting times are eliminated.**

Congress does not have socialized medicine. They have insurance which they pay for.

From Congressman Martin Frost:

**Members of the House and Senate may be seen by the office of the attending physician in the U.S. Capitol (Navy doctors on active duty) when they have a health problem while in Washington, D.C. They may be referred to Walter Reed Army Hospital or Bethesda Naval Hospital for further treatment if necessary. They are not required to use this service and may seek private medical care while in Washington if they so desire.

If House and Senate members choose to use the Capitol attending physician and the Army and Navy hospitals while in D.C., they pay an annual fee (equivalent to being part of an HMO). If they seek private medical care while in D.C. or back in their home states, they use their private health insurance. If they are over 65, they use Medicare and whatever private supplemental insurance they may carry.**

43

The issue of UK National Health waiting times is constantly brought up by folk to talk down socialised health care.

All I can say is, like any sort of propaganda, it isn’t true. You do get delays, and these are often because people are waiting for the results of tests before further procedures are undertaken.

Other delays are often caused by the patients themselves, thing is, all these delays, no matter what the cause, are totalled up and count against the targets that medical practitioners in the UK have to meet.

I have no idea about US medical waiting times, but I don’t pretend to have such knowledge.It seems surprising that on this of all message boards folk are prepared to swallow the shite about UK waiting times without getting verification.

Sometime we get links To newpaper headings, but you should realise that our National Health is a huge item in our nation budget and it holds a special place in the UK consciousness, which means that it is often used as a political football and so is subjected to all the propaganda bollocks that our politically biased media choose manufacture - often using pure invention, or massive distortion.

Ask any UK citizen if they would rather pay out for insurance or have a National Health system and they will think you are utterly lunatic - do you really think that we wouLd accept waiting lists of over a year as a matter of routine?

Next time you read about UK waiting lists, think about it, is it some means of defending the US system, is it a way for those trying to gain political power to use as a weapon, is it statistics or anecdotes, and if it is a specific case then realise that patients never ever blame themselves for their delays intreatment such as not turning up for appointments.

The list of distortions is almost endless and the purveyors of such crap are very inventive, for example is a person needs treatment for multiple conditions then each condition is cited in their own statistics as a separate case - yet a wait of say 6 weeks is multiplied up by the number of conditions that exist in the one patient. This is clearly ridiculous.

When elective surgery is considered it gets even worse, I have know people who elect to delay treatment for months, because of upcoming holidays - imagine you are needing hip replacement, or a shoulder joint operation, you know that this operation will put you out of action for a couple of months. You have some function in the affected part and you have booked a holiday in 2 months time, what do folk do? They elect to delay surgery for 2 months and have the operation on return - result is the waiting time appears to be increased by 8 weeks.
I’ve several work colleagues who have done this exact thing.

Don’t believe the hype

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/03March/Pages/NHSwaitingtimesQA.aspx

If you want facts about UK waiting times, you can listen to the likes of the right wing idiots around, or you can go here and find out for yourselves, of course that will mean you have to read and interpret data, but we are all smart round here aren’t we?

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/Performancedataandstatistics/HospitalWaitingTimesandListStatistics/index.htm

44

Oh, and just to comment on Magiver’s link

That site is one that is trying to promote a business by scaremongering, its about getting customers (I will not use the word patients in this context) to commit to having operations in other countries, it is basicly an advert for private health business which is aimed at the sick and frightened.

As a cite it is pretty rubbish.

Look at my cites, read and then comment - of course that’ll take some work on your part, I make no apologies for this, if you are going to state a case on an issue as serious as healthcare then it seems to me there is some obligation to understand what you are talking about.

You’ll also note that these are general waiting times, and that urgent cases are not listed seperately, it would be all too easy to reduce waiting times on the basis of first come first served, instead of determining need and priority - of course someone with an elective condition waits longer than someone with an urgent condition, and that is how it should be given finite resources.

The US system determines resources before you are even ill, and if you can’t pay for the cover, then the dice has already been rolled. This gives the illusion of shorter waiting times when you finally do require treatment. This system works well enough to keep enough of the US electorate happy enough. It is not my place to argue for or against since I have no stake in it - its your system, do as you please.

45

Agreed. It’s much better than it used to be, and if you need emergency care, the NHS will do its best to provide. But there are only so many doctors, only so many surgeons, only so many organ donors. And if you can live with your condition, and another person cannot live with theirs, then it’s right that they get priority.

46

My insurance company made me wait for over a year before it approved a heart test (I think it was an ECG) and appropriate medication for my heart condition.

The US does have rationed health care. We just use ability to pay as a method of rationing. I don’t know how many jars I’ve seen that have a plea for help, because little Raul can’t get an operation until he has enough money. While the conditions that need to be treated might not be life-threatening in the next week or so, letting the conditions slide until the person can pay for the treatment usually results in a great deal of pain and suffering, and the condition usually gets worse.

47

Fucking great cites casdave! Thanks a lot.

48

As mentionned several times before, Denmark is pretty much the perfect country. All the other countries shold just swallow their pride and seek to become more danish-like.

49

What America lacks relative to other developed countries is a formal safety net that is as robust.

As a practical matter, the informal safety net is probably more robust than generally reported. We don’t have people dying in droves from their cancers because they are uninsured, for instance. A close relative of mine–young and completely uninsured–recently died of cancer after getting absolutely top-notch care costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. What happens when you are uninsured is that you end up exhausting personal resources before being picked up by Medicaid and the like; it’s not as if you get no care. And despite the criticism of emergency department care, it’s surprisingly robust (full disclosure; I spent a career as an ED physician).

For job security and time off we can’t compete with Europe. Is the European system better? As the Chinese famously say when asked about capitalism, “It’s too early to tell.” Even our spending chickens will come home to roost. I am even more nervous about Europe’s.

We have also historically been more heterogenous than European populations, with a large percentage of black and hispanic populations. As the immigrant populations of Europe grow, we’ll see how well those populations do compared with our (existing and immigrant) minority populations here in the US.

50

To answer your question I have travelled from Norfolk Virginia down to Florida several times by road,have also travelled from Miami through Alabama,Louisiana,Texas,Colorado then Nevada and then back to Florida(Pensacola,Orlando,Miami).
Have travelled from L.A. to SanFrancisco,then back to Nevada then up to Oregon followed by Washington State(Then over to Canada),then travelled all the way down the West Coast and then in to Mexico,followed by returning to L.A.

Have flown from Dallas /Fortworth to L.A. and back.

Places I have actually stayed in in the U.S.as opposed to travelled through include Washington D.C.,Norfolk Virginia,Savannah Georgia(First place I ever saw in the U.S.),Orlando,Pensacola,Jacksonville,West Palm Beach and Miami Florida,Walsenburg Colorado,Pueblo Colorado,Big Bend Colorado,Houston Texas,Las Vegas and Reno Nevada,San Diego,Long Beach,L.A. and San Francisco California,Portland Oregon and Seattle Washington.

I may have missed a few so the list is by no means comprehensive.
I may have “admitted”(Sounds like I was confessing to some sort of crime)that I didn’t know a great deal about suburban America as strangely enough visiting residential suburbs has never came very high on my priorities when visiting a vibrant and exciting country…
Oh look theres a house! and yeeees theres another house and whats that down the road there?
Is it the Golden Gate Bridge?
Is it the Statue of Liberty?
Mount Rushmore maybe?

Oh sorry its another house.
I did mention in my O.P. that I hoped that this thread didn’t degenerate into defensive abuse and its been excellent so far,but basically calling me a liar because I hold a different outlook to your own is just the sort of thing I hoped that the posting wouldn’t sink to.

To answer another posters enquiry as to whether or not I have been travelling by train ,the answer is no but I hope to change that at some time in the future.

51

I like it here. I’ve been over in Europe, and I think I would like it there as well, though it would be a bit too crowded for my tastes. Crime? There is some, but not a lot. I’ve lived in some more lively neighborhoods before, and the worst thats happened is I’ve had to learn to live without a car stereo for a time. People are generally happy enough, though they like to bitch, but i feel this is universal. Americans do seem to have a penchant for living beyond their means, which causes stress and drama, but since it is self inflicted, there is little I can do about it other than advising my friends to save a bit, and maybe you don’t really need that new car.

The US isn’t the best place(if any place can even be considered best), but its certainly not the worst, and you can be as happy here as anyplace else. Though I would advise against gay couples moving to backwoods Alabama. We still have a bit of work to do.

The biggest fault of this country is that we are easily bored, and we(not me, but in general) tend to sensationalize everything.

52

Actually, it sounds like you merely visited America, and have not, in fact, actually travelled America. There is a difference, no matter how many miles you rack up. Given your general ignroance of us, it seems your arrogant self-regard is rather unearned.

53

This post is hilarious for 2 reasons:

  1. Because 47 million without health insurance means over 250 million have it. “Most”, by any standard, hell, over 5 times as many; that might qualify as “the vast majority.”

  2. I don’t have health insurance right now.

Next time save your insults for someone more deserving than a guy with a positive attitude and different opinion.

54

I’m still trying to figure out what the “debate” in this thread actually is.

When you post a thread saying that most of America consists of “dirty shabby” areas when you have little idea of how people here actually live, people are going to take offense.

A significant number of, if not most, Americans live in suburban single-family homes and own cars. Neighborhoods range from degenerate slums to extremely nice gated communities. The fact is that if most of your view of America is from the airports and interstates, you are most likely going to only see the lower income areas because that’s who tends to live near them,

55

Even if these figures are to be accepted, thats still 16% of the population which does not have cover. I wonder how high that figure would go if we then considered how many have unsuitable or inadequate cover.

You pay less tax than us, your choice and it does mean people have to be more responsible for their healthcare - is that a good or bad thing, dunno - not my call.

I think the poster who stated that the US has higher highs, and lower lows seems to have it nailed. There are plenty of communities I would like to live in the US, but there are also plenty of places I would not.

I think the US ‘rulez’ attitude is tiresome, as it would be of any bunch of nationalists in any country. This view completely ignores some serious social issues and is just far too simplistic.

If you look at the interwar literature printed in the UK aout Britain and the Commonwealth Empire, this was also just tediously jingoistic and covered up the working reality for most of our population - severe depression in the countryside, short life spans in the cities, long working hours, rotten working conditions, low pay, racist nationalism (there were plenty of fascist sympathisers in the UK) an unjustified nationalistic pride. Gunboat diplomacy and all that stuff.
In among that were plenty of admirable traits, worthwhile aspects of Britain.

We have been through that jingoistic populist phase, its tedious and only serves to disguise the serious social work that needs to be undertaken, all I can say to Americans is, hang on to the best things you have, look honestly at your own problems and build a consensus on social justice, equal out some of the grossest abuses.

… but just stop waving the goddam flags, its really really old.

56

I said “most of us.” The only debate here is a simple yes or no answer to the question, is 84% “most”?

:rolleyes: I’ll let you know next time I see someone doing that. So far it’s been . . . well, my entire life, unless you count poltical rallys and the Olympics, in which case pretty much every country is just as guilty. Oh, and maybe the last quarter of 2001 but I hope you’ll pardon us for that.

57

Then why don’t you make an attempt at educating me out of my ignorance instead of making cheap shots?

I am not an American hater or America hater and I did realise that I would receive at least some derogatory responses from those who were maybe just a little bit insecure about their publicly proffessed pride in their country.

America was and is a great country,it has made literally earth shattering achievements,landing men on the moon for one and without the U.S. a lot of what is today the free world wouldn’t be so free.

That said America is a land of startling contrasts,huge world dominating corporations on the one hand and a not insignificant number of its citizens living in Third World poverty on the other.
Its like a man buying himself a Porsche while he lives in a tent.

This might be out of date now but I remember going down Market street in San Francisco and seeing modern,commercial America in action,and very impressive it was too,but when I turned off there were dank slums with tramps standing around makeshift fires in oil drums.

In Santa Monica in the early hours of the morning I saw people sleeping rough in posh shop doorways,one of them in a wheel chair,I kid you not.
My country has serious flaws and we know it,but until you recognise that there are flaws you aren’t going to be able to do anything to rectify those flaws.

Its one thing being proud of your country and being patriotic but its another being blind and having a knee jerk reaction against any viewpoints that you might not like to hear.

58

You think there are no homeless people in Britain? :confused:

Sorry, but America has a massive hard-on for its flag. You don’t see nearly as many flags in any other country where the government doesn’t make you raise flags, except possibly Denmark.

It would be awfully weird to walk up to a car showroom or into a school classroom elsewhere and see a flag (except in, say, a social studies classroom).

59

Oh pish posh. I’ve travelled the world and lots of countries like their flag. And who cares? The point is I’ve never seen anyone standing around waving one like casdave said. Occasionally see one flying from a front porch but you see that in Canada too, and I’m sure in other countries. You see a lot of flags of other countries here, too. I see a lot of Mexican and Irish flags, the occasionaly Union Jack, some Korean and Philippines flag every once in awhile; in the upper midwest you see a lot of Scandanavian flags. If you count tshirts I probably see a hell of a lot more foreign flags than American ones. Flags are pretty and decorative. I seemed to notice a lot of Japanese flags when I was over there. I sure as shit didn’t feel offended, or want to go up to anyone and tell them to take it down because it was “really, really old” :rolleyes:.

And by the way, none of my classrooms other than social studies had flags in them, except in the lower grades when you were in one room the whole day - that being of course the room social studied was taught in.

60

I think maybe you should visit a real Third World country so you can see how their poor live. I can’t think of any American cities that have large shanty-towns like the Favelas in Rio De Janairo.

Really your perspective is a bit bizarre. What it sounds like is that you just found out that the United States is not the perfect utopia you see on TV and in the movies.