America Divided

Well, it’s getting really late and I’m pretty tired by now, so forgive me if I’m less than cogent, but I’ll offer a little bit of a theory.

There are higher concentrations of Democrats in the heavily populated areas because they are more removed from the predominately rural and agriculturally-oriented midwest and south and the rugged individualism of the western states.

Values among those whose environment is primarily western or agricultural tend to be more in line with traditional conservative values. Among these would be self-reliance; indivdualism; strength of character in terms of fighting your own battles and stoically bearing your own troubles; a polite and respectful demeanor; manners; sexual propriety; etc.

Large cities consist of populations that are either long divorced from the world of agriculture, farming and wild west individualism…or that have long since fled from it, such as African-Americans and other minorities. These populations tend to be less concerned with the values of mid-America and regard them as backward, uptight and repressive. And their greater population densities allow funding for more social programs and government aid.

Basically, conservatives are relatively monolithic in their beliefs, which center on strength of character (as they define it); a strong military; people taking responsibility for their own lives; a more strict moral code in terms of manners and language and sexuality; and as little governmental intrusion into their lives as possible.

The big-city Democrat base, by contrast, consists of a hodge-podge of almost everyone else. They are a rough and fairly disorganized conglomeration of white do-gooders, African-Americans, Jews, homosexuals, women’s rights activists, environmental activists, government program and nanny-state proponents, etc. – basically the traditionally disenfranchised and those who would like to help them. This vastly varied conglomeration of people, goals and interests (and often conflicting interests) results in the typical liberal politician’s inability to define what he’s for. Liberal politicians try to be all things to all people and therefore have constantly to shift their support and beliefs to try to accomodate their volitile constituent base.

Neither of these groups in my opinion is always right or always wrong. Good and bad emanate from both. They are merely different, and who’s right or wrong is usually defined by the passage of time. (However, given that I’m primarily a conservative, I have to say I believe the greater good comes from the conservative viewpoint.)

Anyway, that’s my rough take on it. Obviously, this explanation is a highly generalized and simplified one, but I think it gets across the point I’m trying to make as to why heavily populated and industrialized areas tend to vote Democrat and the rest of the country tends to vote Republican.

(As an aside, I want to say it hasn’t been my intention to offend anyone with anything I’ve said here. But, being as this is the SDMB, I probably have. If so, please accept my apologies as the offense was unintentional.)

I’m speaking of the political machine the drove this election, on both sides. It was not representative of most Americans. The people that sit at home every night watching sitcoms were bombarded with “Kerry will raise your taxes and harvest dead fetuses for profit” bullshit elected shrub.

Yesterday I was talking to a secretary in the elevator and she told me she was voting for Bush because Kerry was a flip-flopper. In the next sentence she went on to say how she would have voted for Hillary Clinton had she ran. That’s when I officially gave up.

Bush is a corrupt, contemptible dickweed. I hate him, but he’s our guy for the next four years. I will try to be a mature open minded citizen. I can only hope that in four years my party can put forward a candidate that can actually appeal to the uninformed masses.

Deal with that.

Do you think Rhode Island could support a standing army? Could Alaska remain as it is now if it was shut off from trade with all other nations? Would it be worth it for Idaho to print its own money?

A stable country needs a diverse population (especially with regards to class, how would Mississippi function if cut loose today?) which is large enough to raise enough taxes to support its government and fill all of the necessary government posts. A stable country with an independent military would need even more people. There’s no way we could have fifty totally independent countries; we could have four or five.

I don’t suppose we could persuade the South to secede again, could we?

Only if you let us take the West (except California) with us.

Hee. If Kerry had won, it might not’ve taken much to persuade them. :wink:

Cite, please.

Cite, please.

Look folks, the difference between the red zone and the blue zone is very clear. The blue zone consists of the economically healthiest areas that pay more in taxes to the federal government than they receive in programs from the federal government. Federal money then flows to the red zone in the form of corporate pork. Thus there’s little chance of a mass change of minds in the red zone; getting rich off the forced generosity of people living hundreds or thousands of miles away is a popular strategy. We’d just better hope the blue zone doesn’t decide to become red, because somebody has to earn that money that gets sent to the red zone.

Regradles, the baby boomers retire in eight (!) years, and then there won’t be any money for anyone.

What? Are you kidding? The Democrat states are the states with the higher population densities. There are more poor people receiving benefits in urban areas and liberal college kids in those states. The red states are your “middle America” states. Not too poor but not too rich. They are the ones whose taxes go to pay for all those benefits.

It’s still a pretty stupid idea, regardless how “serious” you are. The benefit would be what to whom? All the liberal crybabies can move to a state where Bush isn’t in charge? And then what?

No

I won’t argue with that one.

Don’t bet your life savings on that.

Probably true, but not relevant to this discussion.

Depends which red state. Mississippi sure is “too poor”. The ones that are too rich and that pay the taxes are California and New York.

And then they’d pay more federal taxes and get less in return.

Your arguments would be pretty intimidating if they weren’t a load of horseshit. Do some reading:

http://reason.com/0103/co.cy.many.shtml
http://www.lthurow.com/articles/pdf/Poverty.pdf

Read it and weep, because the liberal is right and the conservative is wrong. As usual.

Actually, if CNN’s survey numbers are to be trusted, Kerry appealed to both liberals and a sizable chunk of moderates:


VOTE BY IDEOLOGY

                     BUSH  KERRY  NADER
Liberal (21%)        13%   85%    1%
Moderate (45%)       45%   54%    0%
Conservative (34%)   84%   15%    0%


As The New Republic points out, Bush won not by appealing to folks ideologically, but by simply drawing more right-wingers out of the woodwork – conservatives comprised only 29% of the electorate in 2000, vs. 34% this year.

One could therefore try to make an argument America isn’t divided; it’s just that a louder minority of conservatives shouted down the rest of us.

Starving Artist: I think that’s a good summary of the basic American ideologies – you might want to look here for a website/book on that, if you don’t already know about it. (It’s left-leaning, though.)

I don’t think it’s altogether correct to say that Americans have one of two positions on the political spectrum, though, and I don’t think the political parties are all that different. What seems to happen is that one party takes a position on the spectrum, and the other moves close enough to it that they still stand a chance of winning elections and just far enough away from it to attract support from the people on whichever side the party is on. The American parties aren’t like parties in other countries because they tend to move somewhat on the spectrum and even sometimes switch positions.

The Republicans currently have a right-wing platform and attract votes from the right and far right. The Democrats have a right-of-center platform and attact votes from the center and left. I know a lot of people think the Democrats are bleeding-heart tax-and-spend almost-Commie liberals, but their views aren’t really all that different from the Republicans’. If they were really on the left, the Democrats would support public health care, for example, and they would have said very different things about Iraq.

But no American politician could ever say they would institute public health care, or that they opposed the Iraq war, or the decriminalization of marijuana or the raising of taxes. That would be like arguing for a one-child policy, mandatory abortions or homosexuality, taking the guns away, or even raising taxes. Instead, politicians from both parties say much the same thing and try to win votes based on personality and wedge issues. The wedge issues in particular tend to make people love one party and hate the other.

It’s interesting that the Czech Republic came up – of the countries that don’t have universal public health care, it has the second-largest GDP.

Exactly, and I’d add “nationalization of major industries and public utilities” to the above. Really, anyone who seriously considers the US Democratic party to be leftist hasn’t a bleeding clue what leftist is.

I don’t find personally that, countrywide, the political differences that may exist among various geographical areas of the US or the Big Two parties amount to a hill of beans, save perhaps for three main issues: 1) the integrity and truthfulness of the current administration and 2,3) the movement to suppress formal recognition of non-heterosexual relationships and current rights to abortion. None of these, IMO, is sufficient cause at present to call for the breakup of the country.

Furthermore, persons reading a ‘red-state/blue-state’ political graph and making pronouncements about how divided the country is are spouting complete ignorance. These graphs do not purport, nor are they intended, to make any statement concerning the ideology of the entire population of a state, but merely which presidential candidate received the greater vote, which might be majority of 60%, of 50.01%, or simply the largest minority vote.

Lastly, what are those calling for a breakup really demanding? Well, sounds to me like a one-party state ruled permanently according to the ideological straightjacket of their choosing. Well, thanks but no sale. I happen to believe that a representative democracy means something other than being shoehorned into someone else’s bankrupt ideology, and I suggest that if one is unhappy with the current state of affairs we would be better served by making an effort to bring about a state where more viewpoints receive serious political consideration, rather than less.