America in decline...how would we know?

Great Debates
21

We debate and argue the big stuff around these parts. But it’s the nickel and diming on a daily basis where it affects people directly:
I used to board commercial aircraft with just a ticket and a simple ID. Now I have to take off my shoes, open up my carryon gear and I cannot carry more than three ounces of selected liquids. This is all supposedly for my own safety, yet friends and family in the airline industry and TSA tell me it’s all window dressing for the masses. It’s still a cakewalk to smuggle nasty things aboard if you know where the loopholes are located.

My driver’s license used to be good enough ID for practically anything short of international travel. Now it looks like I will be denied access to all federal facilities, probably be denied access to almost all commercial travel, denied access to opening any financial account (including buying a house or car), can forget about collecting practically any government benefit, etc., because my state is not supporting the Real ID Act. Maybe we should all get our forearms tatooed instead?

I was raised by loving and caring parents, who knew how to not spoil the child nor spare the rod (or at least threaten its use). Today the neighborhood kids think nothing other than themselves and any approach at civility is met with a “Fuck You!” glance, if not an utterance even below that of the gutter. Oh yes, these kids aren’t even teenagers yet. Their parents? Most often indulging in their own worlds, lacking the ability to raise their kids properly, or afraid of them ("If you touch me I’ll call the police!).

When that thingamabob didn’t work, the store took it back, with only cursory questions. Now I have to call an 800 number to obtain an RMA, if I meet their criteria in the first place, and if I can navigate the punching in all the buttons on the phone. You took my money and it didn’t work. What do you mean you don’t guarantee your thingamabob will work as advertised?

Speaking of customer service … what?

Ah, Mister or Madam Politician, about that legislation …? Excuse me?! Last time I checked, you work for me and your constituents, and not the guy who got you 50-yard line tickets to every game for the next five years.

I still remember coming home from kindergarden (so long ago) over the moon because we went to the moon in science that morning! That musta been the start of my life-long interest in science and asking questions. So now science today is just a bunch of theories, and the Grand Canyon was carved in a matter of weeks? What do you mean if my kid asks one one question that you will suspend him?

We used to play anywhere and everywhere, often gone for hours at a time with no worries from us or about us. Today, the Paranoia Pattys and Peters believe potential kidnappers are in every vehicle that passes and flashers behind every tree.

“Your mama wears Army boots!” Say the equivalent today and get slapped with a suit for emotional distress. Hell, my mother wore Army boots as part of the Greatest Generation!

22

:confused: We are occupying Iraq and appear in no hurry to leave. And wasn’t implanting a U.S.-style government supposed to be the whole point?

23

There were several (and mutually incompatible) reasons (other than the stated reasons) for the invasion. Some of them were:

  1. Making sure Iraq’s oil will continue to be pumped and exported.

  2. Placing said oil under the control of American oil companies.

  3. Turning Iraq into a “coaling station” – a permanent secure base for projection of American military power throughout the region.

If that ain’t imperialism, this ain’t the SDMB.

24

We are certainly occupying Iraq…no doubt about that. As to being in no hurry to leave, I think that we’d bolt in an instant if we COULD…without the whole house of cards crumbling the moment we left. As to the rest…if our purpose was to implant a ‘U.S.-style government’ then we failed miserably…because the Iraqi system ISN’T a U.S.-style government…even if we look at the idealized version as its SUPPOSED to work.

-XT

25

… and grown men going outside with no hats atop their heads, wearing short-pants! And in my day, ballplayers were for shit!

Like every generation before, young people have changed the world and culture in unexpected ways. I’ll still take iPhones and Mapquest over Mutually Assured Destruction and segregation. Relative to the Clinton years we may be in decline, but in the grand scheme of things we’re doing fine.

26

I never said that the reasons given were true BG…so, its kind of a strawman on your part to imply I did. However:

Yup. That ain’t imperialism however. Its called national interest…the ME and its oil production is of vital strategic importance not just to the US but to every industrialized nation in the world.

:rolleyes: You ‘cite’ a thread you started. Bottom line…HAS the US placed all of Iraq’s oil (or even a significant percentage) under US oil companies control? By what mandate exactly? I don’t recall…maybe you could cite something other than a thread you started to prove your point?

Even assuming your version is true (i.e. we are doing it to project American military power in the region), its STILL not imperialism…though I admit it skates much closer than any other argument you’ve made yet.

:stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

27

Globalization is the decline of America. The export of Democracy makes the great experiment sort of irrelevant. America has become ‘just another state’. We’ll do fine, just as England has done fine. We’ll be the predominant military power for at least the next generation. I think the biggest evidence of decline is the end of the ‘American corporation’. American companies have been making a big effort to distinguish themselves as multinational and not ‘American’.

When companies are owned by stockholders from all over the world, shop for their top executives internationally and have employees in many different nations, is it really fair to call them ‘American’?

That being said, I think the idea of the rise of China is sort of overrated. The Nation-State system itself is what is in decline, at the hands of American corporatism. I don’t think that we’ll be eclipsed by another nation-state really.

28

:rolleyes:

Brainglutton I can’t find my Newspeak dictionary, can I borrow yours?

xtisme Pursuing national interests militarily in foreign countries is called imperialism. Just FYI.

29

Try using a regular dictionary and looking the term up some time. ‘Imperialism’ has a very specific definition.

What do you base that on? Certainly pursuing nation interests militarily in foreign countries and then attempting to colonize them or otherwise completely control them while controlling every aspect of their economy, society, etc…THAT is imperialism, at least as I learned it. Maybe you are working from some other definition? If so, please provide it so I can see what you are talking about.

I’m not saying what we did in Iraq was right…but by the definitions I’ve seen it wasn’t imperialism. Except to the faithful.

BTW, all this is sort of drifting away from the theme of the OP.

-XT

30

Tomayto, tomahtoe. Invading and occupying another country that never attacked us, for the sake of our national interest, is imperialism.

I linked the thread by way of citing the links in the thread. Perfectly proper, though I have been unfairly Pitted for it before. As for placing Iraq’s oil under U.S. companies’ control, that is the whole point of the new oil law, which the U.S. is pushing hard, against Iraqi resistance. And U.S. companies have been managing the Iraqi oil industry ever since the invasion.

It’s imperialism. See above.

31

Look at it this way, x: When the European powers carved up China into economic “spheres of influence,” that was a classic instance of imperialism – even though the Europeans did not supplant the Manchu officials and govern the Chinese themselves.

32

Hmmm, so one symptom of American decline is that kids are allowed to be more rude and uncivil than they used to be, while another symptom of American decline is that kids are forced to be more polite and civil than they used to be?

I sympathize with a lot of your complaints, but this combination gets a :dubious:

33

Looking at the history there and what the Euro’s did during that period, I don’t see any but the most tenuous similarities between the way the US has behaved in Iraq vs how things were done at that time.

This isn’t to say that what America HAS done is all goodness and light…it isn’t. It just isn’t imperialism, at least not as I’ve seen it defined.

Regardless, I would like to shelve this discussion for another time BG. You know I would love to go back and forth with you on this one (its all a matter of perception…and maybe semantics), but it really doesn’t forward the OP. And I really REALLY want to see some good dialogue from the folks about here on what I was asking…especially more on the historical aspects. So, can we agree to let this go for now and move back to the original topic? At some point, you being BG, you WILL start a thread on the imperialism topic wrt the US, and I’ll be glad to join in.

-XT

34

American imperialism is the original topic, in case you’ve forgotten.

35

:stuck_out_tongue: You will note that its my OP. I’ve hardly forgotten the topic. To remind you, it is ‘America in decline…how would we know?’. The keen eyed observer will note that no where does it say in the OP that the topic is imperialism or whether or not America is an imperialistic power. And interesting topic no doubt…but not exactly the question I was asking.

-XT

36

That was beautifully coherent. Thanks for sharing it.

37

If you had measured American morale in 1975 or 1930 or 1855, you’d have probably found a consensus that the nation’s best days were behind it. We may be going through a similar low point now but that doesn’t mean we won’t recover as we have in the past. I’ve always believed in the idea that “there’s nothing wrong with America that can’t be fixed by what’s right with America”.

38

They didnt conquer the whole she-bang, no, but they did control (and the Manchu’s didn’t) the various pieces parts, like Hong Kong, Macau, and so on. Or am I misremembering my history lessons?

39

Some Germans seem to think America is in decline, FWIW.

40

I see signs I do not feel comfortable with. The manufacturing base is leaving rapidly. Huge pressure is being put on wages. Illegals are putting large pressure on wages for construction and trades. We have an enormous national debt. It could have a huge impact.
Tuition just jumped up 10 % at Mich. State Univ. Schools are extremely expensive and soon it will be only for the rich. We are turning into a society of haves and have nots. It is happening at a rapid pace.
The jobs being offshored are higher and higher wage jobs. Engineering, design ,machine builders, programmers ,computer techs. all moving away . Support companies doing machining and support are going. going gone.