America, someone elses ball, and going home.

I am undecided about my country’s stance on the ICC. However, I do have reservations. Again and again we send our troops into peacekeeping roles. Europe and the UN were unable and unwilling to solve this problem in Bosnia. I am proud of our nation to step up and finally do something about the horror that was going on there.

I do not think it unreasonable to be cautious about subjecting our citizens who risk their lives a half a world away to maintain peace to be not troubled with an international court which may be politicized.

Also, reading this story:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/03/bush.international.court/index.html

It appears that signatories to this ICC have negotiated themselves immunity already. It’s easy to criticize the US when your own troops have already been exempted from the ICC.

“The president wants a level playing field, because those other nations that are signatories to the ICC and are participating under its purview have negotiated similar immunities for their personnel,” Fleischer said.

I have little respect for Bush, and can trust Fleisher as far as I can throw him, but really. If in fact other countries have agreed their troops will be immune from prosecution, I see no problem pulling our troops out if they are not willing to extend the same protections to our citizens.

But it has an interest in some, and the U.S. certainly has an interest in maintaining it’s right of Veto, so I’m not in favor of pulling out of ALL U.N. activity.

**

I resent the hell out of that comment. I’ve felt for years that the US is too involved in U.N. messes like Bosnia with no possible reward. Now the U.N. wants yet another excuse to bash the U.S. (and that’s all this court’ll be, IMO. Just like the “Human Rights” commission, or a number of the panels in any of the U.N.'s eco-conferences.

The two are inextricably linked. If we’re going to go into, say, Bosnia because the U.N. begs us to

**

It abrogates our soveregnty. Our soldiers are guaranteed due process under our laws. Not under the anti-US sentiments regularly spewed by the UN and that I think’ll be spewed by this jumped-up kangaroo court.

Given that it’s so important to you pro-UN types that the US participate in these missions, let me turn the question around. If you’ve got such grave concerns that the U.S. is likely to commit genocide, why are you all throwing tantrums that the U.S. says that it won’t participate in your wars? No participation, no genocide, right? Why is the U.N. so desperate to have potential genocidal maniacs particpate in it’s wars?

Fenris

I don’t think that’s the only case in which the ICC is not in the best interests of the U.S.; that sounds a little too close to the right wing’s reaction when people object to increased police and surveillance powers: “If you aren’t planning on breaking the law, you have nothing to worry about.” One can object to the ICC on other grounds.

For a start, its the UN who are cleaning up NATO’s “dirty work” so to speak.
Those soldiers are not there as US soldiers. they are there as U.N. soldiers. And although they make up a large majority of the peacekeeping force, they are not the only nationality. U.K., Irish, German, French, Australian etc. So you can get down from the high horse of cleaning up other peoples messes.

A US withdrawl from the UN Task forces would affect more than the Balkans, it would include http://www.towson.edu/polsci/ppp/sp97/unpeace/peace5.htm

the bolded acronyms are current UN missions. All of these would be affected.

I have no claim that the U.S. is going to commit genocide.

So is Milosivic getting a fair trial at the moment?

Would you agree that the ICC would be a fair place to try Al Quaieda members?

They’re American first, Twist, and I sure as hell have a big time problem with the soldiers of my country being claimed by the UN as its own as if the UN was some sovereign body with power above the participating countries.

The UN has for far too long been shitting on the US and making fun of Americans who don’t want to see their national sovereignty go down the toilet - but then people go right on out and confirm that the UN isn’t about a federation of independent nations. The statement that somehow those Americans in uniform belong to the UN is rank and disgusting. They’re Americans who went to help because nobody has ever had a problem asking the USA to bail their ass out of some mess or another, and those citizens of the US put their lives on the line for it.

The UN’s not a country and it doesn’t own those soldiers unless you’re talking about some kind of globalist new world order government in which there’s no such thing as an independent country.

The way I see the situation again and again it’s playing out like this:

UN: America does nothing but abuse human rights with its legal death penalty and gun rights. They’re a bunch of ninnies who want to live in some fantasy of the wild wild west that they created.

US: Since you hate us so much, we’re going to send our kids home so they aren’t out there dying to do the dirty work of other countries who either can’t or won’t get their hands messy themselves. We’re done dying for the causes of people who don’t respect us.

UN: See what arrogant spoiled pathetic children they all are? They only give a fuck about themselves and want to run amok all over decent people and global harmony. We didn’t ask them to send their citizens off to die in one of our wars those soldiers who wear those American patches belong to us.

Somewhere around there the USA woke up and told the UN to shove it up their ass. Should have done it sooner, IMO.

who said that they weren’t American?

All I was trying to say is that when they go on peace keeping missions they go as blue berets. the UN does not “Claim” them, the US sends them as Blue Berets.

they do not “Belong” to anyone.
And where exactly is the UN “hating” America?

I’m going to repeat myself REALLY SLOWLY.

Every country that can, takes part in UN Peacekeeping missions. Ireland sends troops. the UK sends Troops. France sends troops. Sweden sends troops. Germany sends troops. Italy sends troops. The US sends troops. Belgium sends troops. Australia sends troops. etc.

Have I established well enough that a lot of countries send troops?

These Troops take part in U.N. peacekeeping missions around the world, that are an incredibly great thing. and its not just military, Police Officers, Fire fighters, medics, they are all part of the U.N. task forces.

They are not doing anyone elses dirty work. In fact, the UN task forces are currently helping out in Afghanistan. Who’s dirty work are they doing there?

I respect the U.S. troops that are part of the U.N. forces. I think it is an incredibly altruistic thing to do, and The US’s expertise in peacekeeping is second to none.

However, to claim that I should respect the US government for treating their troops like a football that they can carry home when they don’t get their way, is stretching things too far.

There is more things at risk here than a game of tag football in the park.

U.N. peacekeeping missions are a red herring in this debate. The U.N. typically only puts multi-national forces in place after the heavy lifting has been done.

The U.S. has indeed done a grossly disproportionate share of the “dirty work” in troubled spots around the world inclusing Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and even Iraq. Sometimes these actions, like Iraq, are strongly in the U.S. national interest. Other times, like Somalia, they are not.

There is much discussion of how America looks to Europeans but we should also keep in mind how Europe often looks to America. The United States is essentially pragmatic. It wants to accomplish a given goal as quickly and efficiently as possible with the minimum expenditure of lives and treasure, especially American lives and American treasure. Process, ego stroking, propitiation and political gestures take a distant back seat. America often believes that some course of action is objectively correct and that, as a result, some choice is “right” and others “wrong.”

Europe, for various reasons, is far more process-oriented. They are far more willing to sacrifice pragmatism for consensus than is America. Europe is far more willing than America to make grand political gestures that may be only marginally in aid of some concrete objective.

Neither of these approaches are inherently correct and both can be taken to absurd extremes. Certainly, each often looks absurd from the other perspective.

Kyoto is a case in point. There are excellent arguments to be made that Kyoto was fundamentally flawed and should be scrapped. However, the way the U.S. went about it was simply appalling to European sensibilities. America found this puzzling. “But it’s a bad idea, isn’t it? Look at the numbers! It doesn’t make economic sense! What are you complaining about?”

The Euro is another. This was originally pushed as having a huge economic benefit. It eventually became quite clear however, that the real “benefit” was symbolic. The symbolic benefit was considered important enough to undermine the economic basis for monetary union. IIRC, based on the original economic criteria, the only country able to join the Euro would have been Luxembourg. However, criteria were shamelessly fudged to ensure that as many countries as possible were able to join at the same time. Many Americans viewed this process with bemusement. “You want monetary union as a symbol of unity and so you can compete with the dollar? What’s the point of doing that? What is this symbol going to cost? What’s the cost-benefit analysis?”

These different perspectives create friction even where America and Europe, as almost always, share common goals. The Europeans are offended at what they perceive as American boorishness while the Americans roll their eyes at what the percieve as European fuzzy-mindedness.

With respect to the ICC, America is deeply suspicious of a grand political gesture that will be far more likely to affect it than any European country. They are unwilling to pay its potential cost. This isn’t a matter of taking your ball and going home, it’s a matter of deciding not to come to the party. Maybe Milosevic is technically correct. Maybe bombing Serbia was a “war crime.” The U.S. doesn’t want to take the risk of being second-guessed, especially when it is acting where it has no strong national interest at stake. Declining to participate in further peace keeping (or peace making) missions essentially forces the rest of the world to internalize that cost.

I have to say there is also a very slight undercurrent of anti-Americanism in the ICC. Some European countries, particularly France, are very keen to take the U.S. down a peg or two and create a “multi-polar world.” Creating international institutions that have sovereignty over the U.S. is a key element of that strategy. The U.S. suspects that, despite protestations to the contrary, some countries in the world would be delighted at the prospect of having the U.S. being publically embarrassed by being hauled before the ICC. The U.S. is, of course, quite aware of this and, not particularly wanting to be taken down a peg or two, is not keen to give the ICC the opportunity.

Japan = Ally.

It might be a bit different if nations such as Iraq and China were sitting in judgment of our activities.

Of course the world needs protection from our nefarious activities, genocidal maniacs as we’ve been for much of modern history. Bosnian ethnic cleansing, the Khmer Rouge, the 2000 presidential election - one and the same :rolleyes:

As Nuremberg and the Milosevic trials have been mentioned - it seems to be an indication that responsible nations can hold rogue states to account now and again. But with a sitting international body incorporating member states with an agenda of embarassing the U.S., might the temptation to stage political show trials be a bit too much? Take the current situation with what may have been a totally unjustified, horribly mistaken bombing of civilians in Afghanistan. I can see anti-American elements of an ICC rubbing their hands with glee at the chance to put the U.S. in the dock.

Courts are supposed to be impartial (a hopelessly naive American notion, to be sure).

With all that, I’m still uneasy about the U.S. decision. It means absorbing a sure p.r. hit now, instead of taking the risk of pulling out later when a politically motivated prosecution occurs.

Sparc: “I’m a fervent US defender over here…”
Do you run into Pjen at the meetings? ‘:p’

Never realized that my posts held such piss poor quality as to deserve being in that club, but it is hard to see the beam in one’s own eye is it not just.

For what it’s worth I meant it culturally more than anything and believe me there is all too often the occasion to get defensive.

Back to the OP for a moment; for those who didn’t notice the White House backed down this PM. They sent out young Ari to tell us that instead of canning the idea of enforced world peace they would just work to get immunity for American soldiers from the ICC. I guess Colin came back from vacation to clean up after George’s latest kegger or something along those lines.

Sparc

It is interesting, from a sociological perspective, to see how little the United States Constitution means to those outside the United States.

Somewhat irrelevant, but interesting nonetheless.

Wasn’t aware it applied outside the US.

Actually, that is one of the little oddities that might add some confusion to the discussion at hand. The American principle is that its citizens, independent of their location should be protected under it. Of course this doesn’t apply both ways, one of the reasons Germany was a little peaved at the execution of two of its citizens in Arizona in 1999. What with the death penalty being considered unconstitutional in Germany.

Truth, I agree with you that the US does the Lions share of the heavy work, and the multi national task forces get deployed after. But the saying that the US is cleaning up everyone elses dirty work is ignoring the fact that alot of the time it is is NATO’s cleaning up they are doing.

For possibly the best explination I have seen of the ICC, please read UDS’ brilliant posts in the GD thread.

And, as America has ( rightly, IMO ) backed down on withdrawing U.S. troops from UN work, my righteousness has been justified :wink:

Given that the USA, for better or worse, has chosen to take a different path, it’s time for the UN to learn to stand on its own, neither giving weight to the USA’s demands, nor holding out it’s hand to the USA.

I still don’t see the problem. I have been reading this thread and the GD thread, and I don’t see a single thing.

No. If you are suspicious of something that could remove power or soveriengty, you do not just “go along with it” to see what happens.

Bad comparison. Hague = voluntary on all counts. Hague won’t rehear the trial you already settled if they weren’t satisfied by it.

This dumb crap is what all politicians do everywhere and the ICC will just give them a much more blatant opportunity by holding other country’s citizens hostage to get attention.

I don’t know if Bush thought up this plan or not, but it is as brilliant and obvious as a slap in the face, and I love it. Write your own representatives: get the hell out of this court.
Twisty

Yeah, that is irritating, isn’t it? And it is exactly what power the court will give to other participating nations.

Then our not participating just isn’t a big deal.

Andy, it doesn’t have to apply to anyone outside the US, but it does have to apply to our citizens. International opinion on our constitution would then make sense, wouldn’t it: how else can we know whether our interests will be served? Anyway, that is but one of many standards.

>> one of the reasons Germany was a little peaved at the execution of two of its citizens in Arizona in 1999.

Um, no, not really. As I have said in the parallel thread taking place in GD, Germany was peeved because it had a treaty with the US granting reciprocal rights to its citizens for consular notification and access and the US did not abide with the obligations they had freely assumed.

Eris

US participation in the ICC is up to the US (Even though they did ratify the Treaty of Rome).

Threatening existing UN peacekeeping missions because they can’t get their way over the ICC is a very big deal indeed.

I don’t think so. We have had the European court of Human Rights since 1959. Granted it tries only states but it is still a super-national court. In The McCann and others vs. United Kingdom the court found that UK had violated art 2, the right to life. And the UK is still a member of the convention.
Go to http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/hudoc/default.asp?Cmd=Query and search for McCann to read the case.

Uh, well, the facts of the LaGrande case are a little more complicated than that, what with these two “German citizens” being arrested in 1982 at the ages of 35 and 37, and not having lived anywhere but the United States since they were young children. That and the fact that they murdered one of our citizens. I do not support the death penalty, and I believe the U.S. should honor treaty obligations, but I also believe that these two nice German boys should not have been murdering American bank managers.

And the US was somewhat peeved at being told that decisions of the International Court of Justice, a non-sovereign body, is capable of making binding provisions on sovereign courts of the United States. Which is exactly why we’re skeptical about the ICC.