Why is the US so opposed to the International Criminal Court?

The ICC has now begun operation. It has the power to prosecute individuals for crimes in violation of International Humanitarian Law committed after July 1st 2002 if the country where the crimes occurred is unable or unwilling to prosecute.

The Rome statute of the ICC currently has 139 signatories and 76 ratification’s, including France, The UK, Canada, Germany and Australia.

The US is a signatory to the statute (under the Clinton admin. with reservations) but the current government has since shown strong opposition to the ICC. This page indicates the US’s position.

IIUC the ICC allows the prosecution of citizens who’s countries do not recognise the court if the crimes are committed in a country who does. What does this mean? It means that even if the US does not support or recognise the ICC, its citizens are still able to be prosecuted abroad. This includes US peacekeepers which explains why the US is going against the entire security council to veto the routine 6 month extension to the Bosnian peacekeeping effort. This has repercussions for many peacekeeping operations around the world.

cite on the bosnian situation

Why is the US so against the ICC?
Why are they fighting so hard to get immunity for their forces from the type of charges that are indefensible? Why doesn’t the US trust a international court to deliver justice?
Is this hypocritical considering the US is expecting the international community to support them in their ‘war on terror’?

Is the US really going it alone in world justice? The ICC vs the US?

Further information of the ICC

International courts would quickly become politicized against the US, it also represents an unacceptable loss of sovereignty. Bad Idea.

I think that it also has to do with the fact that the USA wants more freedom to deal with criminals in its OWN manner, and do not want to give that ability over to international courts. Plus there are various human rights problems, like lack of a trial by jury…

If the UK et al find their own citizens on the receiving end of “politicized” action, the US will be proved correct. But we don’t yet know whether that will happen. My understanding is that prosecutions can only take place if a country refuses to examine and deal with cases where its citizens are accused of human rights transgressions. If the US refused to investigate a My Lai type affair, the ICC could step in. Otherwise it couldn’t. Since it’s unthinkable that the US wouldn’t, the only attempts to use the process against US citizens would be spurious, frivolous, “politicized”. The UK and others feel at ease with that.

As for loss of sovereignty, it’s far less than with many other international agreements. WTO agreements deprive countries (inc the US) of serious amounts of autonomy. Loss of sovereignty in exchange for mutual benefit is a fact of life. I can’t help wondering whether this argument is mainly designed to please the swaggering, macho rightwing element.

I’d say our experience with the General Assembly of the United Nations is the very best reason for not having our folks subject to it.

Out of curiosity, could anti-weapons running laws be included, to say, prevent the exchange of military arms like machine guns without UN approval - and then a legal machine gun transfer in the US which breaks no laws could be tried in, say, Germany?

Convoluted, I know, but I’m wondering if this court would have that sort of power.

Given the bizarre record of current ‘War Crimes’ courts, such as the ICC’s drooling over the prospect of getting Pinochet, but nary a peep for Castro, I am glad that American soldiers will not have to worry about being brought before that gaggle.

More importantly, international bodies have no accountability to the people. Much like the EU, which started off as a sort of uber-NAFTA, but is now pushing abortion, , the ICC, and the ever encroaching UN, the people have no say, making these organizations self-proclaimed nobility. They are able to rule by decree, since popular mandate never enters into the picture.

No thanks.
Side note:

America has a rather honest approach to international treaties. We don’t sign the ones we don’t plan on abiding by, or that we do not agree with. I suspect that many of the states signing on will simply ignore the ICC when it suits them. Disingenuous of them, but a hallmark of much of the world.

You mean like the US approach to the 1972 ABM Treaty?

I think some politicians just don’t like the idea that an International Court could (and probably would) call the United States to task for some of the unsavory things we’ve done in the past. What’s the statute of limitations on Iran-Contra, anyway?

That is my point exactly. We no longer thought that the ABM treaty any longer served our interests, so we formally withdrew from the ABM treaty. We didn’t just develop and deploy the system in secret, or in violation of the treaty.

The Rome Statute of the ICC will not serve American interests best (if at all). It will potentially subject American citizens to a non-Constitutional legal system. So rather then be party to the statute, just to be with the in-crowd, we opt to stay out. You may not like that decision, but it is honest.

I do believe that America is a signatory to the statute, but will not actually be a member state. I think that means ‘We agree in principal, but bugger off’.

Just a quick note: The ICC can only prosecute states or individuals for crimes commited after the 1st of July 2002.

How do you prosecute a state?

Marc

The world spends a lot of time bashing the USA, no wonder they get pissed off. If the USA had signed up to the ICC (and the UK has), it would be the most prosecuted nation as politically appointed judges, supplied by countries like Zimbabwe, China and Iran, take every opportunity to hide their own countries’ shortcomings by attacking the USA. The ICC, by allowing the likes of Mugabe a say in its running, has little moral weight. I’m with the Yanks on this one.

Prosecuting ‘the states’? Thats what the whole thread is about. :wink:

Just kidding, my bad.

Just a quick question…

What balances are set into place to help ensure that the ICC doesn’t overstep its bounds?

None, IIRC. The ICC is answerable to no-one, not even the UN. (But I can’t find a cite. Dammit! The information was from an opinion column in the Daily Telegraph - here.)

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that many people consider this – http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020702/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan_12 - a war crime.

As other posters have pointed out, there is a lot of anti-American sentiment in the UN and similar organizations. What if American authorities investigated the above incident, decided it was an accident, and decided not to prosecute, but the ICC were to file charges against the soldiers involved in the above incident?

It’s true that ‘giving up sovereignty’ can be a good thing. But the US already has one of the best justice systems in the world. And let’s face reality: as suggested by other posters, some of the other nations that would participate in the ICC are corrupt, totally hate us, and wouldn’t shy away from using the ICC to attack the US if given the opportunity.

You obviously don’t pay alot of attention to UN matters, do you?

China are against the ICC (as are Russia). And you would be hard pressed to find a Zimbabwian Judge on the bench, given that it is very possible that Mugabwe may be one of the first to be investigated if the recent actions continue.

Please, read up more than what the Daily Torygraph has to say on the matter.

The court will not investigate any alleged crimes before 1st July 2002, so I’m sure Henry Kissinger is breathing a sigh of relief.

The US are scaremongering the political side of this court. It will happily jump behind it when the losers of its wars are being sought after ( Milosivic, Karadic et al. ) but want immunity for its soldiers to be awarded.

The ICC will only investigate War Crimes and Genocide.

Quote “Zimbabwe, China and Iran”.

Bad example, memo to self - check your facts. :smack:

The Torygraph article is opinion only. It happens to be in agreement with my own opinion, which I had formed before reading the article. I was trying to avoid plagiarising the article by refering to it.

The principle of the ICC is sound. The practice will be the problem. The USA will be the no. 1 target, not the likes of Milosevic (but check here for a take on his case).

The main constraints on what the ICC can do can be summarised as follows.

(a) It can only prosecute somebody for a limited range of offences which are set out in Articles 5 to 8 of the Rome Statute (which establishes and governs the ICC). Briefly, these are genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and agression. Genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes are defined by reference to existing treaties to which the US is already a party (and in any event the US cannot and, I think, does not deny that these are crimes capable of prosecution, having taken part in the Nuremburg prosecutions for precisely these crimes). “Agression” remains to be defined and cannot be prosecuted until an amendment to the Statute defining the crime of agression has been adopted. Even then prosecutions will only be possible in cases involving those States which have accepted the amendment.

(b) It can only prosecute somebody who is a national of a State which has ratified the Rome Statute or has accepted the jurisdiction of the Court, or who is acccused in relation to acts committed on the territory of such a State.

© No prosecution can be mounted where a State is willing and able to mount a prosecution of its own, or where a State has investigated the matter and decided not to prosecute. That could be either the State of which the accused is a national or (if different) the State where the acts complained of were committed.

(d) No prosecution can be mounted where the individual concerned has already been tried for the same acts (whether he was convicted or acquitted).

(e) The UN Security Council can (in effect) delay a prosecution indefinitely.

It’s worth noting that, because of point © above, the concern raised by Netbrian above shouldn’t arise. As long as the US is willing to investigate and, if necessary, prosecute its own citizens (as it was in Lt Calley’s case) they cannot be prosecuted before the ICC.

This also addresses lucwarm’s concern. There’s no doubt that intentionally directing an attack against a civilian target would be a war crime under existing law. I don’t think the US would deny this. If Afghanistan has ratified the Rome Statute – and I don’t know if it has or not – the US personnel accused of involvement in such an attack could be prosecuted before the ICC, but only if the US were unwilling or unable to investigate the matter itself, which is unlikely to be the case.

Monty rejects the ICC because of his perception of the General Assembly. With respect, that’s a bit like saying that he rejects the jurisdiction of the US courts because he considers that congress is full of venal opportunistic politicians.

SenorBeef is concerned that, say, an arms deal which is lawful in the US might be capable of proscution before the ICC. Article 8, which defines war crimes, doesn’t attempt to bring arms dealing as such within the definition, but it does allow for prosecution for the use of certain kinds of weapons – poison, gas, dum-dum bullets, and so forth. If these are not already illegal in the US, obviously they should be. In any event it is using them, rather than dealing in them, which can be prosecuted. It is possible that something which is lawful in the US could be prosecuted before the ICC, but I don’t see any examples. And, it should be remembered, the things which can be prosecuted are things which are already forbidden by treaties which the US has ratified, such as the Geneva Conventions.

I don’t know what Brutus is referring to when he talks about “the ICC’s drooling over the prospect of getting Pinochet, but nary a peep for Castro”. It would concern me greatly if a court were expressing views about who ought to be prosecuted before it. Any cites, Brutus?

Go alien objects that the ICC is “answerable to no-one, not even the UN”. But this is as it must be. It’s a court. It should be independent, not subject to some executive body. The independence of the judicial system is a cardinal point of the US constitutional system, and they expect to see it reflected in international courts also. The (long-established) International Court of Justice is similarly independent, and the US, which has had its differences with that Court, has never objected to its independence. If the ICC were not independent, that would be a good ground for the US to object to ratification.