Spare me the mock outrage, you stupid asshole.
That photo has been all over the newspapers, the TV and the internet. Nearly everyone in the entire universe has seen it. The version I linked to was in a fucking encyclopedia for chrissakes.
Fucking moron.
Doesn’t mean it’s there for you to use as a joke, dude. That wasn’t mock outrage, it was real. You don’t like it, no skin off my nose. I still think you’re a jerk for using it in that manner.
Even Hezbollah condemned it. :eek:
Lenin never let death keep him from being witty. I just checked out the Oxford book of quotations myself. Apparently it’s attibuted to Lenin by the Webbs in their “Soviet Communism”, published in 1936.
thanks (although I know you’re not specifically appologizing to me, nor am I thinking you should). I was surprised at your original statement (especially since, As far as I can remember, since the last time I recall you making a blanket ‘all blank are blank’ statement, it seemed that you’d learned the folly of those). As far as I can recall from this fucking trainwreck, that is all I remember being at your throat about (I admit I could be wrong, I don’t feel like wading through the shit in this thing to find out). Seemed to me that I was mostly pissed to the max at folks attempting to shrug off the prisoner abuse story as a few pics of harmless frat type pranks by bored soldiers (obviously, I hope, a generalization of the other position, not claiming any one said that specifically), when it was clear by specific phrasing in the reports and by those who had read them that horrible as the original set were, there was much more (yes, even though specific criminal charges outlying exact criminal allegations had yet been made). I still feel that it is pointless to assume (for discussion sake, obviously in court of law presumption of innocence must be held) that criminal acts such as rape, assault, perhaps murder (as stated by the one Senator on Meet the Press last Sunday) happened. (note that for example, we can still claim that some one was murdered even if no one has been found guilty - Nicole Simpson is still a murder victim even though no one has been found guilty in a court of law for the crime).
My only statement was that I expected the Arab world to celebrate this horror (happily, I was wrong.) Someone asked me if I thought all Arabs were terrorists, I facetiously replied, “Cite?” , and we were off to the rodeo.
One thing I have learned is that people here insist in putting words in each other’s mouths, including mine. It’s impossible to make any claim about a subset of a population (Some Americans like football) without having that claim inflated to all the members of the population, thus inspiring repeated outrage (“How DARE you say that all Americans like football, you asshole?”). Even if I were to put in a qualifier like “some” or “many,” it gets changed to “every,” so I’ve basically given up trying to be clearer because it doesn’t make a damned bit of difference.
I was adamant and quite specific about the seriousness of the horror our nation visited on the people who were tortured at Abu Ghraib, and I still got shit on by the folks attacking Weirddave. All he wanted was to see evidence of rape and murder beyond mere assertion, which people twisted into accusing him of denying that any torture had happened, even in the face of specific quotes to the contrary.
But to repreat, I was wrong
Not that it will make any difference.
Great, another layer to dig through. Any idea where the Webbs say they got it from?
I can work with that.
I also thought a bit about the “defending religion” crack and my flippant response, and I wanted to take a moment to expound. I will defend the adherents of a religion from attacks, whether consciously racist or not - and I felt the attitude you took towards the Arab response in general was an attack. If I have the time in the next day or so, I’ll go back and review what you said in this thread to honestly determine if my assessment is fair or not. But I, too, am glad to see the reaction of even the higher-profile terrorist organizations against this butchery.
And - boy! Are we happy about that!
??
A little more grist for the mill:
Given that whether or not Berg was alive during the decapitation is being rationally debated in GD, it appears that I owe Reeder an apology for my intemperate comment last night.
I was on you for the expectation that celebrations would be universal. Can’t answer/speak for what others said/did. ANd for me, it was in fact the “all” that did it. qualfiers such as “some” I’d agree w/ (after all, there are “some” Americans who are shrugging off the prison abuse stories)
again, I don’t believe that I was part of that. I understand that in the midst of a thread, one gets lumped in with others arguing essentially similar positions, (and most folk do that, difficult to wade through after all), but I honestly try to specifically address (by name) only those who (by name) have said the specific thing - which I generally do by quoting the person.
um, I disagree with that in that the ‘evidence’ he was demanding was actual photos (which haven’t been released and may never be released) and/or some level of specific criminal conviction (no time to have happened yet). Simply bizarre. Again, when the medical examiner has ruled a death “homicide” you can use the word “murder” (especially since the word has meaning outside of a courtroom- which would, I would submit, include an internet message board discussion). We linked to newstories and quotes from public officials who’d made statements. I almost linked to the transcript of the Meet the Press show from last Sunday where a Republican Senator made the statement “rape and murder” (which is where I’d gotten the phrase, figuring if a public official who’d had access to a whole fuck of a lot more than I had was using the phrase in a public you know you’re going to be quoted setting, that there is evidence to support that. I decided not to since he’d also used the word “allegation” which I surmised that Mr. Dave would leap onto saying “ah-ha, it’s still merely allegations, I’m looking for proof”. when you’ve got some one who -even later admits that he’d seen/heard Rumsfeld admitting there was much more- demands “PROOF” **before ** there’s been a trial, hell fuck it - that level of shit isn’t worth the grief he heaped out. At this point there are only ‘allegations’ in the literal sense of the word (since we’ve not had trials where we can claim proof), and it seemed idiotic to continue playing that game. Christ, did you see him even read the quoted phrase and point out that it still didn’t contain the word “Rape”? (yes, he admitted that he personally considered it a rape, but fuck, really)
I find it amazing that you manage to read what I post, yet somehow fail to absorb any of the things that I say. Go back and read again. What I have been asking for as “proof”: Photos. Charges. Transcripts from investigators detailing their findings ( and whatdayaknow, when Mtgman provided such, my response was “Why, you seem to have brought forth evidence of rape, looks like we’ll have to add that to the list of atrocities that have been “proven”” Some hairbrained Senator saying " I saw rape and murder " convinces me of nothing, especialy since Senators and Congressman, as a whole, tend to speak grandiosly. The only time I mentioned conviction was when I said I would need a conviction before anyone could be imprissoned or executed. Again, why is that outrageous? Do you want to imprison people without a trial? I really don’t think you are advocating that, but look past your outrage and see what I am actually saying here
Did you see where wring said she was responsible for the assasination of Abraham Lincoln?( yes, she didn’t actually say that, but still…) Wring, I was noting that it wasn’t classified a rape because that disturbed me! As I said, in my book, a guard fucking a prisoner is rape. He should be charged with rape! “A guard having sexual intercourse with a prisoner”, bullshit! Call it a rape, charge and convict his sorry ass, and send him to Leavenworth to rot.
(to the audience) see what I mean?
The charges were not specified in the report, either. Neither did the report mention the word rape. as a matter of fact you noted that specific fact. Nor did the report mention the word murder. There was evidence of investigations into the allegations of both rape and murder. The report also did not include the photos. All of these things will remain {technically in the legal sense} allegations until after a trial. Which obviously hasn’t had a chance to occur.
So, Dave - since the report did not in fact include the words “rape, murder” or photos of same or the specific charges of rape and murder, why are you accepting that as ‘proof’ in your eyes vs. the public testimony of the officials (including the author of the report) whose statements are linked?
ya know what? never mind. you will continue to believe what you wish, when you wish it. If I bother w/you in the future, I’ll try and remember to ask specifically before hand what Dave will consider proof, so he can’t simply say ‘nananaboo boo whatever she posts as proof I won’t accept’
Wring, The report details:
Item “K”, which I have bolded, seems to me to clearly be an instance of rape, and so I am calling it such. Where in the report do you see any mention of murder?
Not yet. Oddly, I was in a used bookstore a few months ago, and bought volume one of “Soviet Communism”, so I can see if it’s in there. (If it’s a real quote, I think it’ll be in the second half of the book, though, which I don’t have. The first half deals with Soviet governmental structure and the purges.) Did you ever read the book, btw? It’s disturbingly pro-Stalin. In their defense, though, they were both in their 80s when they wrote it, and a lot of Western socialists and communists were taken in by Stalin.
You know what, wring, I’d forget about having any kind of honest interaction with him at all in the future, as he is completely devoid of any ability to be honest or hold himself up to the standards to which he holds everyone else. Case in point, his comment: “I find it amazing that you manage to read what I post, yet somehow fail to absorb any of the things that I say,” yet manages to read what I post and yet still fails to absorb any of the things that I say, distorting my positions entirely, claiming I condemn American soldiers at the slightest hint of impropriety, think Israel can do no wrong, hold up the Hussein brothers as martyrs and think Mr. Berg deserved his beheading – none of which can even be misinterpreted from anything I’ve actually said. He says he’ll believe the allegations when charges have been brought, we point out that charges have already been brought, and then he repeats that he’ll believe it when charges have been brought. It’s a never-ending, bang-your-head-against-a-wall battle. GAH!
He’s been following me around for the past week and provoking me, and up 'til now I’ve been stupid enough to allow it. My bad. But you can rest assured I won’t be making that mistake again. If he continues to post utter falsehoods about me, I’ll simply ignore him and report him to a moderator. Even if he addresses me directly, it will fall on deaf ears (or a blind eye). I will never let him push my buttons again – I’d recommend the same to you, hon.
And gobear, I’m proud of you for that admission (and thrilled that circumstances in the world allowed it to be necessary – YAY Arab world!). But with regard to dave supposedly merely asking for a cite, you may have to take my word for it, but there’s no doubt in my mind that he was attacking my credibility personally. He can deny it until the cows come home, but he knows better – he’s been having all kinds of fun lately throwing little jabs at me, and this was just another one of them. But like I said, my bad for allowing him to piss me off in the first place.
And my apologies at large for allowing my anger at his antagonistic behaviour towards me, coupled with my anger at our continued involvment in this bloody war, my outrage at the revelations of the horrifying behaviours of some of our troops, my anger and disgust at the beheading of Mr. Berg and my utter terror for the future of our nation and our entire world, to express themselves here. The Pit is notoriously a good outlet for rage, and I’m feeling a lot of that lately, given events as they’ve been this past year in particular, and the prospect of 4 more years of this terrifying regime lording over our nation. And then to have some little prick constantly poking me with a stick – well, 'twasn’t easy to allow it to go unchallenged. I’ll avoid him at all costs in the future, and work on reigning it in a bit, as well.
Shalom
I haven’t seen any evidence of murders in that document, although I have seen sources that say some soldiers will face murder charges. One allegation was sniping at prisoners from guard towers. A newspaper in Borneo quotes a AFP story
Enjoy,
Steven
You know, Shana, I hate to burst your persecution bubble, but I didn’t even realize it was you when I first replied-I reply to posts, not to posters. When I saw that it was you, my thought process was “Shayna is a pedantic poster, I better clarify that I’m not talking about the initial round of abuse photos or she’ll focus on that”, which is why I made my second post immediately afterwards. Why this put you in attack mode is beyond me, and what you think I’ve done to you to deserve being attacked by you is a complete mystery. You can rest assured, however, that I have no intention of following you around these boards or anywhere else and “provoking” you, nor have I done so in the past. Sorry if that’s a disapointment to you.