American Cops?

Factual Questions
21

I believe the officers were found innocent because the defense successfully argued when King left his car he lunged at one of the officers (this was on the video tape). So, the officers thought he was armed, so they started to hit him. The police are trained to keep hitting/shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. King never went down and stayed down, he kept getting up.

Unless you were in the courtroom or part of the jury then it is difficult to say for sure why the jury believed the defense.

22

Glitch,

Post 1 : I believe that the ‘customer’ is anyone, if they have commited an offence or not. They are serving the publics best interest. The rest of that post is right in that I probably am taking it the wrong way.

Post 2 : From my viewing of the video I think that is a very strange verdict if that was why they got off, but as you say, who knows what the jurys thoughts were. The public sure made their thoughts known and that to me says a hell of alot more.

By the way, I don’t advocate lynch mobs I just think that it was a bit of a farce!

23

It would appear that cops are trained to fire all the rounds in their guns at the first sign of a wallet.

24

Only if it’s loaded of course!!!

25

Thr main problem with police officers is that BECAUSE they are in a position of such power, they MUST be held to a higher level of accountability with regard to their actions. And yet time and time again we find incidences of police officers who are often committing acts that we would not tolerate from an average person, such as:

“Racial profiling”: A bullshit term that means bigotry. Basicly, when a man in a white sheet harrasses a black man, that’s wrong. When a police officer harrasses a black man, that’s racial profiling. Police officers are allowed to stop a man just because of his race, even if he has committed no other crime. Well, maybe not allowed as in “it’s legal to do so” but allowed as in “who’s gonna stop them.”

Abner Louima: A Haitian immigrant in New York City who committed no further crime than being a Haitian immigrant in New York City is subjected to the NYPD’s interogation tactics: He is held down by several uniformed officers and raped with a broomstick.

LaTonya Haggerty: A speeder is stopped on the southside of Chicago and, clutching an object no more dangerous than her cell phone to her chest (she had apparently been talking on it up until the moment she was stopped, and didn’t think to drop it) is shot to death without warning by the officer who stopped her. Just so you don’t think it’s all steroid-enhanced crazy WASP men who committ police brutality, the murderous cop in this case was an African-American female.

Now, it cannot be emphasized enough that THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN POLICE OFFICERS are shining examples of civic duty and are model citizens who I admire greatly for risking their lives in what is perhaps the most thankless job in the world. For the sake of all of these marvelous police officers, we CANNOT tolerate instances of police brutality, first and foremost BECAUSE it tarnishes the image of the hard-working, decent police men and police women who are doing their part to keep the streets safe and are not themselves committing crimes.

[/rant]

26

Folks, you have to remember in England, cops do NOT have guns on them.

27

I have family members who are police officers. Both worked hard to travel up through the ranks. One is currently an administrative Captain and one reached the rank of Lieutenant before becoming involved in a political dispute and resigning.

I thought I would like to be a police officer, wanting to get ‘bad guys’ off of the streets. I rode with police officers to observe, plus talked extensively with my family member, visited the police station many times, and even took a test or two that many officers take in training.

My family member went through years of college as well as being on the streets in order to climb the ladder and then had to play the political game to some extent the higher he went. (It is doubtful that he will ever be Chief because he refuses to get heavily involved in politics and the position of Chief is very political.) Even now, he flies now and then to training courses, seminars and such to learn more.

I discovered that I could not be a police officer. I would probably kill someone. The tension, the rules and regulations the have to follow, the daily danger, the massive amounts of paperwork they have to do – AFTER and arrest and the places they have to go plus the laws they need to learn and their appearance in court to face lawyers who delight in trying to tear them apart was just too much for me.

The general public was even worse!

Don a badge, the uniform, the gun and the public sees you not as a person but as an icon, a symbol of authority and expects you to be perfect. They expect you to be superhuman!

In the 70s they had all of these ‘nice guy’ cop shows where cops were going out of their way to help people, give them breaks, being therapists, understanding the actions of the crook and having cool family lives. Very nice but not very practical.

I learned that Joe and Josephine Average Citizen are not a cops friend most of the time. I learned that even off duty a Cop is ON duty. Most cops I know go armed almost everywhere, even when in civvies and out for burgers with the family. Several long time cops have guns hidden in strategic spots around their homes because of the many death threats by crooks they arrested and sent to jail.

Stop Joe $100,000 a year businessman in his $50,000 car and he goes from being Mr. Average to being Mr. ‘who-the-f**k-do-you-think-YOU-are-stopping-me-because-I-was-doing-20-miles-over-the-limit-because-I-am-important-and-in-a-hurry?’ he gives the officer a ration of crap and the officer has to be polite and watch what he says.

Had he delivered that same ration of crap to another average citizen, he would have gotten a punch in the face but a cop cannot do that.

A cop shows up at a spouse beating scene, finds the wife beaten half to death and the husband still thumping on her, breaks it up, has to fight with the guy who is determined to hurt the officer and discovers that wifey is jumping into the mix because HE is HURTING HER MAN!

An officer stops a young guy for a minor traffic violation, probably planning to give him just a warning and the kid produces a gun and tries to kill him over a possible ticket!

He stops Ms. Cute and Sweet, who flirts with him to try to get out of a ticket, gets one anyhow and then later charges him with attempted rape or sexual harassment! If he should give in to a sexual bribe, to meet the woman later, off duty and does so, afterwards it has not been unknown for the lady to file charges against him for sexual blackmail or rape.

Drunks are bad. I know of one old guy who was stopped because he was plastered, gave the cops a hard time, was hauled off kicking and ranting and in his truck they found not only a loaded .45, but, under the seat, a machete, a huge switchblade – the biggest I’ve ever seen – and a sawed off shotgun. Young men who are drunk, especially BIG ones seem to often want to fight the officer. Get into the high crime minority areas and they often want to try to kill the officer.

I took a test where one faces a suspect, gun drawn, and in a series of scenarios he is reaching for - a wallet, a card telling you he is deaf, or a gun. It is up to you to determine which and whether or not to shoot. I used a real gun loaded with live shells – stuffed with cotton wads.

I ‘killed’ the guy several times as he reached for his wallet or the deaf card. I ‘killed’ him once as he drew a gun. He ‘killed’ me several times as I hesitated, not wanting to shoot an innocent person.

I determined that I could not take the massive amount of verbal abuse the cops go through from people without striking out in anger. Nor could I control myself and use ‘minimum force’ to restrain and contain a violent man if attacked. Nor could I handle judges and lawyers getting rapists, killers and thieves off because I forgot to dot an ‘i’ or failed to do something ‘just right’ in the paper work.

I decided that the pay was far too low for me to go out and risk getting shot just because someone was having a bad day. I understood why cops have one of the highest depression, divorce, suicide and heart attack rates in the nation.

I understood why cops develop a ‘cop’ attitude and often accumulate friends who are in law enforcement only.

If you be nice, as a cop, to the general public, and understanding, the chances are high that one of those you give a break to is going to either shoot or stab you when you least expect it or try real hard to ruin your career. PLUS, those you arrest and poke in jail might run into you, off duty, having a few drinks and, fortified by their own alcohol consumption, decide to try to kick your ass. (I observed this in person in a strip club with my family member at a bachelor party. He handled it quietly and well away from the others and the disgruntled ex-con was hauled off to jail – again.)

I cannot be a cop. I admire and respect those who are. I actually understand when some react like they should not and I am always bemused by the insistence on local governments to provide such low pay for people to daily risk their lives for us and who always insist on never providing sufficient help to cover almost any given city. PLUS, who always, in times of financial trouble, decide to cut funds for the police as one of their first ‘cost saving’ moves.

It’s like the local governments don’t want enough police out there to provide great service and cut crime down to nearly nothing. Plus, Joe Citizen has even COMPLAINED on the rare times that sufficient cops were on duty because he felt they were infringing on his rights to do things he might not want seen.

No Sir. When a cops stops me, I say Yes Sir and No Sir and I might not like it, but I respect the man and the badge. They do a job that I simply cannot do for a pay that I would sneer at because of the danger involved.

28

Sentinel,
You say you understand when a cop does something he or she shouldn’t do, but you don’t give any indication of your opinion of such an event. I agree that it is a tough job and that there are many things that a normal person would not put up with or even wish to encounter. That doesn’t change the fact that if a cop breaks a law they should be punished accordingly the same as anyone else, just because they do a difficult job with high stress rates and constant danger, not to mention not being appreciated for it has no bearing.

If I get pissed off because my boss says that I have to stay behind to finish some work off and is generally being a tyrant, that doesn’t give me the right to assault him does it? NO.
There is no justifying beating someone because of their race or because you’ve had a bad day/month/year. Whilst my sympathy and appreciation goes to them for all the good they do that doesn’t outweigh the bad side and the fact they have broken the law, period.

29

Correct. Now, please inform me when the rules changed so that cops don’t get punished when they break the rules? Oh, that’s right, you’re a victim of the media.

  1. The majority of cops that I know (and I know quite a few) are nice, caring people who want to help their community. If they’re a little rude when they give you a traffic ticket, well, you deserve it.

  2. Cops who do break rules are punished, or fired. The TV news/cop show bullshit where every cop protects every other even if their evil is not only stupid, it’s a complete farce. The police department is not an organized crime family. Of course, the only time you ever hear about a cop doing anything on the news is when they royally screw up or one turns out to be a bad guy.

  3. 99.99% of cops don’t get the recognition they deserve as selfless heros. The other 0.01% is constantly made an example of and used to unfairly stereotype all cops.

In short, I’m sick of it. It pisses me off. Next time you see a cop walking down the street, walk up to him and say “thank you.”

30

Police are not trained to shoot at wallets. Police are trained to act against a possible threat. I wonder who would be crying for a fallen police officer if the guy had of had a gun and killed an officer. You think a cop in the street doesn’t have a family? You think he doesn’t want to go home alive? You think it is so easy? What don’t you go down to your local police dept and tell them you think it would be dead easy to make the shoot/no shoot decision, and see if they’ll let you take the test? I have done similar tests and it is not very easy at all, under circumstances where I won’t be killed if I make a mistake. Walk a mile in a man’s shoes and then you can start to understand him let alone judge him. Consider for a moment that the police are trained to yell “No gun!” when they see that something is not a gun. Funny, none of the officers yelled that. Which means all FOUR of the oficers couldn’t tell which says to me that it must have been very ambigious under the conditions of adrenal stress (you might want to go learn about the effects of adrenal stess). Learn first, then judge.

Gesh: You can believe that you are thier customer all you like. The reality is that when a cop is busting a criminal he is doing it to serve and protect everybody else. He is not providing a service to the criminal. What service is the police officer providing when he:

a) arrests a murderer?
b) arrests a robber?
c) tickets a litterbug?
d) tickers a speeder?

Do you really think he is providing a service to any of those people? On whose behalf is he acting?

And note, I am not saying what the police did with King was justified. You asked how they “got away” with it, and I am answering that question about what the defense argued. I don’t know if I would have believed the defense or not, because I didn’t get to see all of the evidence. All I saw was the complete video (not the segment the media loved playing ad nauseum).

31

I’ve met ‘bad’ cops, and feel that for some of the things they have done, they deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. In some situations, they deserve to be punished beyond the level of an average citizen doing the same thing because they have violated not only the public trust, but the image of their fellow officers.

I also know cops who have reacted badly in some situations and understand that they had reached their breaking limit BUT still managed some control. Example: They chase Joe Slime 50 miles after he blew away that teenaged clerk in the store for $10. He runs off of the road, after running a couple of officers off first, and crashes, then hops out of his car and tries to run. The officers pounce on him and within several seconds kind of ‘punch him up a tad’ before hauling out the cuffs, kneeling on him, maybe driving his head into the dirt a few times, then hauling him to his feet in the most painful way possible, reading him his rights on the run, slamming him into the car without ‘protecting’ his head – which bounces off of the door jam.

I find nothing wrong with that. I am actually impressed that he probably did not need anything but minor medical attention and no stitches.

Years back, in Vero Beach, Florida, some kids were roaring through town in a car they stole about 100 miles away. They had been chased by several police departments and held no regard for anyone else on the road. Luckily, it was late at night. The Vero police, knowing where they were headed, hauled a lit flatbed truck across the road, deciding that enough was enough.

The kids hit the truck at over 100mph and instantly ceased to be a problem. Hell was raised about this ‘inhuman’ tactic – because the kids were teens. Yet, nothing was said about the fact that they endangered the lives of countless others who were on the road. People complained that the flatbed was not well lit, not enough warning was given to the kids and lawsuits were mentioned, but, eventually, it all went away.

Me, knowing how dangerous such chases are to officers and the innocent, I figured the Vero Beach police did just fine. Besides, as kids, they would have gotten their hands slapped, probably would have spent a year or so in a juvenile facility and upon turning 21, their records would have been cleared. Hell, I know kids now who have rap sheets of over 30 pages long and they are walking the streets and still getting into trouble. It would have been nice had they survived, but they chose to take the risk themselves.

32

Brother-in-laws aside; I have never been treated disrespectfully by a police officer. I realize that it happens quite often. I have found that it always in MY BEST INTEREST to be polite and respectful to cops, judges, and my hairdresser.

Needs

33

Like attorneys and physicians, the vast majority of police are decent and honest and professional, but there is always a small segment that should never carry a badge/stethoscope.

My assessment is that about 5% of those police with whom I’ve worked should have been immediately removed due to personality disorder, ability, or desire. Another 5 to 10% were borderline, meaning (by my definition) that they were not a harm to themselves or others, but not exactly someone you’d want to hire. The rest were mediocre to outstanding professionals.

As far as I know (to be fair), I never worked with a dishonest cop in my department, nor any in any other department that I suspected of being dirty. A couple of years after I left narcotics, one of the US Customs agents with whom we sometimes worked was arrested for smuggling, but I would never have guessed it from my work with him.

34

I would add to the titles listed early on in this thread. For YEARS now, I’ve had a copy of “City Police”, by Jonathan Rubenstein. Printed, 1973 byt Doubleday. Written very meticulously, in Philadelphia. Frank RIZZO’S Philadelphia, the same one I grew up in.

The change in perspective, and attitude towards officers in the subsequent 27 years since it's publication is astonishing. I'd recommend it to anyone fascinated by this topic. I took one amazing thought away from it. The entire urban violence issue is theorized to have begun in London, when gin was invented. Now, before you all jump my shit here and tell me to provide a cite, here ya go. The book listed above, pp. 5-14 inclusive. Go, read, I was enthralled. He makes a very persuasive argument.

Just as an aside, I was attacked by a dog owned by a Philadelphia Police officer when I was 6. This was 1968. I escaped by running up the front hood, and onto the roof of my best friend's parents Purple Bonneville. ( They were VERY chi-chi). Not only were my parents unable to get any sort of satisfaction, but they were threatened with damaging city property if they didn't drop the whole thing. ( The dog was unleashed, and running free, but somehow...that did not matter one iota ). I was not bitten, I got away with a torn shirt. To this DAY I cannot tolerate large dogs.

Cartooniverse
35

Gesh, I’m startin’ to worry about you’re interest in murder and cops in the United States… No offense, but if you make it stateside, you can skip your visit to my place. :wink:

Just kidding, but I was wondering why all the interest in all things legal?

Screeme

36

If you are pulled over for a minor offense it is a good idea to take a passive approach.
Acknowledge that your sticker is out of date, or that you shouldn’t have made a U-Turn at that corner. Acknowledge that the officer is correct.
Once you let the officer know that you accept his/her call then any debate is over! You are not a threat to them.
When that officer gets the radio report back that your car insurance is paid up and you have no outstanding warrents (this part is accurate, isn’t it?) then you just put yourself in the 90% category of getting a “warning.”
This is human nature. Your actions above simply acknowledge your awareness of human nature.

37

FROM FREIDO

  1. Cops who do break rules are punished, or fired. The TV news/cop show bullshit where every cop protects every other even if their evil is not only stupid, it’s a complete farce. The police department is not an organized crime family. Of course, the only time you ever hear about a cop doing anything on the news is when they royally screw up or one turns out to be a bad guy.
    I say again. We here in Southern California are reeling from the ‘Rampart’ scandal. Although there have been no trials yet, over 30 officers have been implicated in that station (Rampart) alone. Before the dust settles, there will be a lot more. Their cimes had been going on for years and it was well known throughout the division.
    This only came out because one of them turned states evidence to save himself from a lifetime behind bars. He plea bargained and was sentenced to 5 years in prison.
    In the LA Daily news, the LAPD brass has admitted it needs federal help to clean up the corruption.
38

Screeme, I don’t know to be honest. American legal/cop shows are always so much more interesting than English ones and because I know that they are just shows it makes me wonder how real they are, you guys help me to try and gauge how close to the truth they are. As for murder, well, I just can’t help but be intrigued by all things gruesome and gory and the depths that people will stoop to, also the way they are caught is fascinating.

Friedo, I didn’t once say that the rules had changed I simply said that if they break the law then they should be punished the same as anyone else, I gave no statement as to wether or not I think/know that they do as I simply don’t know.

Glitch, In answer to your post :
a)None
b)None
c)None
d)None

No he is not providing a service to any of the criminals but what I have said all along is that I (someone with no criminal record, being someone who has only ever been pulled over as part of a routine check rather than for speeding etc) am the customer because I have commited no crime and therefore the police are supposed to be providing myself and the general public with protection from the criminal element and not giving me a hard time for no apparent reason.
I have repeated on nearly every post on this thread that I have made that I can understand things that the other dopers are putting forward and I don’t disagree AT ALL that it is a damn hard job and mistakes do get made in the heat of the moment. As Doug Bowe recently posted, you are better of taking a passive approach, this I couldn’t agree with more. This is where my problem arises, I am perfectly civil with any policeman that I encounter and do as they request. What gets me is when they still continue to give me a hard time and be ‘tude’ with me when I have done nothing wrong and they know it and I am being responsive to any questions/requests made of me and to top[ it off I’m being nice too!!
I am not putting cops down or saying that they are all bad as often my experiences with them have been more than satisfactory, it just really gets to me when people abuse their power, in any job or situation. You can explain to me that they have a hard job until you are blue in the face, because I don’t disagree with you I just don’t see that as an excuse. A factor yes, but an excuse no.

39

Gesh: I apologize if I have misunderstood. I have to say that almost every cop I know when he is dealing with a citizen in the context of a non-criminal encounter is usually friendly (in fact, they teach this at the police academy especially when dealing with witnesses, since a witness is going to want to help a “good cop”). Maybe the cop in question was just having a bad day.

40

Glitch, no apology needed, it was probably me not articulating myself well enough, or it’s my English accent!!