American Fascism, The Irony of Democracy, and why the Left Should Be Worried

Questions such as this had begun bothering me a couple years ago, as I became more politically aware (that is, I started to pay close attention to current events). The rhetoric bandied about during the election taught me that I have a low tolerance for politics, at least as currently practiced. So that I am not constantly in an accute state of anger, I have let it fade into the background – not out of mind, but no longer to the fore.

It seems to me that there is indeed a cyclical component to political moods; not a fixed cycle, nor an easily identified similitude, but a cycle nonetheless. I’d say that since the mid-90s, the country has been swinging “right” (or “conservative” or “Republican” or however you wish to describe it). I’m not sure how that would be measured, so I can’t provide a cite. It is, however, something I believe to be true.

With all that said, I’m not overly worried about the US turning into a fascist state. I start to worry when I think specific events may hinder the possibility of the cycle continuing. If a SC decision came down permitting religious exhibits on government property (e.g., Roy Moore and his marble slab), I’d be worried. If we were to begin a war with Iran under false pretenses, I’d be worried. If public K-12 schools began requiring RFID cards and no parents complained, I’d be worried. In fact, institution of a required national ID card would be a big warning sign. The overturning of Roe v. Wade would, to me, indicate a level of government intrusion into people’s lives that might indicate a non-recoverable rightward swing. Perhaps I put too much trust in the power and judgement of the courts that any of these things, should they happen, will be stopped.

This is not to say that I’m not worried. The general populace’s seemingly selective “morality issues” (abortion and same-sex marriage were hot-button issues, the death-penalty and FCC crackdown really weren’t) during the election worry me. The Lindh case worried me. The fact that the RIAA can subpoena information about people trading files on P2P networks without a court order worries me, as does their seeming ability to get whatever legislation they wish passed. The recent finding that high-schoolers think speech should be restricted worries me. The passionate diatribes I’ve heard against the ACLU worry me. The case of the South Dakota man who, it was ruled, had to produce ID for the police (SD? I forget his name and what state it was) worries me. The fact that “plausible deniability” seems to rule both the political and corporate world worries me. However, none of these alone are enough to make me believe the pendulum won’t swing back in the future. Furthermore, not only can one can point to just about any point in history and find examples of similar happenings, but there are also some good aspects to each of the above.

I suppose what I’m saying, in my prolix way, is that I don’t have an answer as to how to gauge the “fascist mood” of the country. Part of the problem is that you’re asking for definition of an ill-defined zeitgeist; the “14 points of fascism” listed are inadequate. I don’t think any single event would be indentifiable – at least, while it was happening – that would indicate we’ve passed the tipping point. I’m a computer scientist, ferchrissakes, not a historian, sociologist, or politician. But I do have worries, enough to keep the thought in the back of my mind.

It never stopped AFAIK. Here’s a picture of Franco under canopy in 1971.

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Conservatives think Mallard Fillmore is funny. 'nuff said. :smiley:

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Strawman much?
I understand your reluctance to discuss the points that have been raised. The suggestion that one wean onself from a silly line of argument may seem threatening.

But it’s time to move on to solid food.

Well do any nay-sayers think the US is becoming more democratic… more socialist or anything that might indicate non-fascism ? This topic can be argued by bringing in counter examples instead of dismissing it outright.

Oh, yeah, Southerners have stopped voting Democratic because we’re just a bunch of bigots. There aren’t enough :rolleyes: 's in the world to express the exasperation I’m feeling right now.

Just curious – are you denying that the civil rights movement had anything to do with the Southern swing from Democrat to Republican? Would you also deny that “carpet-baggers” and other such post-civil war items led to Southerners voting Democrat en masse until the 1960s? (Note that I’m not talking about you in particular, but Southerners in general, with all the backsliding and non-specificity that entails.)

If so, it flies in the face of everything I’ve heard/read/etc. Of course, everything I’ve heard/read/etc. could be utterly wrong, so I’m asking for clarification.

FWIW, having been brought up in a small town in the North and been inculcated with the stereotype of “Southerners in general” that you reference here, and having lived for over six years now in the Upper South, I’d have to say that like most stereotypes, there’s some truth but not a whole lot in it, and that the situation is and was incredibly more nuanced than the stereotype would suggest.

I deny that that the swing from Democrat to Republican was ever exclusively or even primarily a reaction to the Civil Rights movement. All of my family continued voting Democratic well into the '70’s for quite some time after the Civil Rights movement had crested, and many continued to do so well into the '90’s. My grandmother, probably the only member of my family who could reasonably have been described as an overt racist, was disgusted and angered that Richard Nixon defeated McGovern. All three of my uncles went to their graves as yellow dog Democrats–because, they said, the Democrats were the party of the working man. FDR was adored in the South, largely because he honestly did his best to help working people who were struggling desperately.

I don’t know what you’ve read and heard, Tom, but if you think the Republican swing in the South was due simply to some kind of backlash against civil rights–well, sorry, but you really don’t understand what happened at all.

(By the way–if the South’s devotion to the Democrats really was motivated entirely or largely by racism–what does that tell us about the Democrats—?)

Thanks Polycarp and LonesomePolecat for the responses. I’d not continue this hijack, but it’s related to the OP in the sense of trying to gauge the “mood” of the times. Therefore, it might be instructive to establish some agreed upon measure and try to apply that methodology to the current situation.

Of course; a generalization is by its very nature less nuanced and coarse-grained than reality. Look, if 80% of women are paid less than their male counterparts, it is an accurate observation that there may be a “glass ceiling”. Just because a (fictional) female friend of mine is the highest paid employee of her kind doesn’t refute the statistics. Contrary anecdotes don’t mean that generalizations don’t provide some form of explanatory power. I’ve been thinking of starting a GD thread on this; individual anecdotes (see below) do not refute generalizations. Contrarily, generalizations can’t really be used to explain certain specific instances. They may, however, provide insight into social movements or trends. Ach, when I have time…

The anecdotes regarding your family are all well and good, but say little about the state of affairs in a general sense. In your opinion, what did cause the shift in Southern state from Democrat to Republican during the late-1960s? To reiterate, I’m not taking a personal position on this; I’m trying to figure out if what I’ve read/heard/etc. is wildly inaccurate or there is some kernel of truth there, however large or small it may be. And furthermore, to make an attempt to relate this to the OP, how does one gauge what causes or affects social movements? How do you gauge that, seeing as how you must have some measure if you are arguing against civil rights exerting any influence?

You are correct – I most likely don’t understand it. Help me out. Oh, and – who’s Tom?

Just to point it out – not trying to stir up any more shit – in this case, it would be the South’s current devotion to the Republicans that would be motivated “entirely or largely by racism”.

Please explain to me why “socialist” is deemed the opposite of “fascist”. It seems to me that socialism can co-exist with fascism as easily as it can with democracy. More in fact, since a totalitarian state must neccesarily have total control over the economy when it wishes. Even if an industry isn’t officially state-owned in a totalitarian state, when the leader gives orders the industrialist obeys. I’m sure you haven’t forgotten the long form of the name of the totalitarian party that ruled large portions of Europe in the 30s and 40s?

As for “more democratic”, I suppose I could cite the discussion we are having right now. Ten years ago only a small fraction of us would have been able to participate. I blame Bill Clinton.

So, she didn’t compare bush to Hitler? Looks like friend Shodan was indulging in some Hyperbol-lie.

Still, I think if you believe that Americans are in general any closer to a leader-nationalism, you are going to have to deal with the fact that we’ve had such people around many many times before in our history. For all the talk about tolerance and democratic values, our actual history is much more colored, and I would wager to say that things are better today than they’ve ever been. After all, supposedly the closest we ever came to facism was when FDR was nearly ousted by a coup.

Fascism, in many respects, is an ideology of negativism: anti-liberal, anti-socialist, anti-Communist, anti-democratic, anti-egalitarian, etc., and in some of its forms anti-religion.

Control of the economy would be achieved (for the most part) through corporatism. Also, totalitarianism is not a necessary characteristic of a fascist state.

These definitions may be debatable, but they were the ones I was using as a basis for the OP. We can continue to debate them if you wish, but I rather like the ideas offered by Digital Stimulus:

This is closest to what I had in mind as a direction when I posted the topic for discussion.

You shouldn’t be quite so quick on the draw. Rashak Mani did not say they were opposites, he also mention democracy. It seems he asked for examples of counter social currents - unless you think the US system is static and not changing at all.

Are you measuring Democracy through computer sales or internet access?

From what I’ve read: even from the 20’s and 30’s onwards, the South was generally what we would consider “conservative” by the standards we tend to associate with the Republican party: anti-union, anti-communist, anti-government spending, and anti-tax. Certainly there was a strong populist movement in the South as reflected by the Longs and southern suppot for FDR- but most of those elected to Congress from the South could be counted on to stand with the Republicans on business and spending matters. It’s just that nearly every politician elected was a Democrat, because the “yellow dog Democrat” standard combined with Democrats being neutral or in favor of segregation and Republicans being against it made being a Republican candidate a no-go in the South.

In the 1960’s, the Democratic Party switched positions on segregation, and that broke the reason many conervative, other-wise Republicans in the South continued to only suppot Democrats. At that point, the population began to fall into voting along the natural patterns for parties- conservatives voting Republican and liberals voting Democrat.

Okay- please prove that in any way. Show me any racist statement by Bush or associate in the 2000 or 2004 election designed to help get out the vote in the South. Otherwise, the fact that Bush won the entire South in both elections must be attributable to something else.

:dubious: Yes, Lonesome, racism – and not differences over fiscal responsibility or foreign policy or the Vietnam War – is why white Southerners, in 1968, started voting Republican – a choice which would have horrified their grandparents. Because they no longer wanted to support the party that had enacted the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. That’s why LBJ, when he signed the CRA, lamented, “We have lost the South for a generation.” And that’s why Kevin Phillips advised Richard Nixon to run on a “Southern strategy” in 1968, and that’s why he won; and that’s why Nixon and Wallace’s vote totals in Southern states in ‘68 were roughly equal to Nixon’s totals in those states in 1972 when he ran with no third-party challenger. And that’s why the character of each party has changed beyoned recognition, until the party of Lincoln became the anti-civil-rights party and the white South became the Pubs’ principal power base, and the Democrats lost (most of) their old social-conservative base and became (for the most part) the party of social liberalism. See The Emerging Republican Majority, by Kevin Phillips (1970), and Up From Conservatism by Michael Lind (Free Press, 1997). But neither party is really a party of economic populism, not any more; maybe Howard Dean will change that.

Despite what I considered the unreasonableness of John Mace demanding cites to prove a quote cited in one of the articles I cited in the OP (whew), I am linking to the full text Rockwell article the quote was taken from. It expands on Rockwell’s assertion of “Red-State Fascism” in the form of “almost totalitarian statist nationalism”.

I’m still not sure what John was after, and even though some of the language used by Rockwell is (IMO) hyperbolic, it occurs to me that it might have some relevance to the tangent topic begun by Digital Stimulus and Lonesome Polecat re the Southern states.

<on preview>I wouldn’t rule out some aspect of (modern day) racism, but to still see it as a primary or singular reason would (IMO) be a mistake. Check out the Rockwell article for some alternative ideas (Maybe I’ve been overly influenced by Southern Libertarians?)

That the Dems were a largely white-supremacist party – or at least a party that offered a comfortable home to white supremacists – until the '60s, but are so no longer. Which is plain historical fact.

I refer the honourable gentleman to his campaign in the 2000 South Carolina primary.

Where the Nazis in fact "socialists" ? (yep I'm asking) Its one thing to put it in your party name... and another to actually be socialist.

I put "socialist" as a measure of "left pending" catch word... 

I really think it would help if some kind of argument showing that American under Bush does have democratic or "liberal" leanings as opposed to conservative or "fascist" tendencies. Maybe Bush will just move the USA a tiny bit away to the right... but then maybe it going the opposite way ?