The Revolution . . .

Great Debates
1

starts . . . now???

(quick side note: this is my first Great Debates attempt, I hope I posted this in the correct forum or that this won’t bomb miserably!) ::keeps fingers crossed:: :frowning:

Lately, I’ve had to take some time to look within. I have felt confused, bewildered, and alone. I had to keep questioning my political views and myself until I could hammer out something that explained how I was feeling and what I am witnessing. Needless to say, I haven’t quite found an answer. Since I truly respect the opinions of all of you, I would like some feedback on this, from the Right and the Left (snarky comments need not apply).

Am I the only one going crazy?
Why am I being attacked for my opinions?
Why should I feel guilty?
Why do I feel pressure to compromise, or even abandon, my core values in order appease the right, and why does the Democratic Party feel the need to do the same?
Does the Democratic Party realize how many people they have been abandoning with the appeasement?
Why is the Democratic Party taking it like a cheap prostitute getting bitch-slapped by her pimp for $20 and a hit of crack?

(please read on, this is not the debate, merely my train of thought)

These questions, among others, have made me very depressed as of late. But alas, I am comforted that this is how American Politics is: the same code words (“flip-flopper”, “liberal”, etc.), the same attack strategies, the constant mud slinging. History keeps repeating itself and we never learn - we do the same things over and over and over. We keep up this childish playground technique of winning people over and drawing lines in the sand. It’s gotten to the point where the left can’t have civil discourse with the right and vice-versa. I know this isn’t new to America, but over the past decade or so with the dawn of New Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh (they are only examples), politics have become downright abusive, far beyond what I and many people far older than I have seen.

The nagging issue in the forefront of my mind is one of such a serious nature, one that could possibly (if not stopped) take hold of our “free” country and destroy it. That issue is Fascism. It has been said that fascism is an extreme right faction, and from what I’ve read on other blogs, the difference between Communism and Fascism is: Communist Governments control businesses, vice-versa in Fascism. The latter, in my opinion, is where we are headed. Lately I have seen a lot of rumblings about this particular issue from the viewpoint of not only those in America, but also those outside of our borders.

Hear me out on this, this isn’t necessarily “tin foil hattery” as many of you like to sling that label on someone who isn’t falling into lockstep with the current administration. It is a serious issue that I think in all the emotional crises of September 11th and the quagmire in Iraq, we are letting what otherwise would have been unheard of become common, citing national security or some other excuse. I’m not speaking specifically of the recent influx of GOP-paid journalists (although that is part of the many facets of this dire issue), but also the raping of the environment, the privatization of Social Security, the corporate cronyism (i.e. Halliburton), and lets not forget Fox News Channel injecting our Conservatives with their daily talking points, blatant rudeness and utter contempt for anyone center and left.

Is this something other people are concerned about? I find this very troubling, even more troubling is the number of people falling for it. Have we gone too far where we can never come back? Is there hope for bringing this country back to “by the people, for the people”? Why are we not paying attention to what matters? Why all the hypocrisy?

I realize in a Democratic Republic such as ours, by definition is impossible for this country to be “by the people”, but can we at least go back to “for the people”? We are voting against our own interests for sake of “family values” and spirituality, but that is not the job of government, that is the job for families (I admit, I am highly against legislating morality). It has become so viscous that there is no “love thy neighbor” anymore - anyone in disagreement is “crazy” or “too liberal/conservative”. This is tearing us apart, but what I think is the most frightening is all the bickering and mud-slinging back and forth is covering up this growing threat within our own borders. I don’t recognize my country any longer; it has been taken over by lobbyists and childish politicians who are whoring us out to add more billions to their bank accounts.

I realize this is a very loaded post, but my main issue is the growing fascism and the games the government is playing with us to keep us distracted from what they are slowly doing. I feel we are going to wake up one day and realize we have a dictator, not a president. I know some of the rabid Neo-Cons around here will probably reply to this with “drive-bys”, and I really don’t want that and I don’t want this thread to go south very quickly like most of these do, but this behavior is a symptom of what is going on in the bigger picture here.

Are we headed towards Fascism? Is there anything we can do to reverse that? What is going on in our “free” country?

Some links for some further reading:

Fascism

http://watchingthewatchers.org/index.php?p=299

Social Security
http://rawstory.rawprint.com/105/social_security_1.php

Misc. links

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=7476586

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Politics in the US has always been abusive. Sorry, but as one of the ‘older’ folks, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Even a cursory look at US political history would assure you that this past election was nothing new as far as mud slinging and name calling goes. In other words, you are getting all worked up over nothing.

Fascism has no chance of gaining a foothold in the US…nor does Communism for that matter. Again, you are getting worked up over nothing, and you are being captured by your own retoric…Bush et al aren’t Facists, as you seem to be implying, nor are they footsteps on the path to Facism. Unless you feel Kerry et al are Communists or footsteps on the path to Communism. :dubious:

Oh, I don’t think its tin foil stuff…its more partisan politics, hyperbole and mudslinging as usual. Its ironic you should put in this paragraph in light of the above comments you made in the OP about how the political system has become one of mudslinging, etc. Don’t you think?

While I might disagree with the Bush administration over most of the issues you list here, I don’t see it as the end of the republic, or the beginning of Facism.

I think its safe to say most people are concerned, on both sides of the isle. Most though are realistic to realize that our system is self correcting though…and after all, Bush et al will be gone in 2008 and someone else will have their shot at screwing things up. This has been the case for the entire history of the nation, when one side was relative happy because their guy had one, and the other was relatively unhappy and contentious because the other had. One has but to look at the recent Clinton presidency, where if memory serves certain hand waving partisan mudslingers and hyperbole artists made similar claims about the end of the republic and the eventual take over of the Communists.

Well, YOU say they are voting against their own interests, but thats just because the majority didn’t vote the way you wanted them too. :smack: And its YOUR claim that they, the unwashed masses struggling to stay ignorant voted because of ‘family values’ or ‘spirituality’…but you don’t say what you base that on except your own WAG colored by your own obvious political partisanship.

As to tearing us apart…I’m not seeing it. Its really only the nutballs on the fringes that see this as tearing us apart. Most Dems are simply looking to learn from what just happened, awaiting events and ready to get back on the horse and try again in 2006 and 2008. Sorry, but where do you see this tearing apart aspect? And how is it any different than in the past, with the possible exception of Lincoln’s election…unless its your contention that we are close to another civil war of course. It just doesn’t get as bad as that, no matter how you wave your hands or cry out against Bush.

Cutting to the chase…no. We aren’t headed to Facism except in the most fevered minds of the most rabidly anti-Bush crowd. Just like we weren’t headed to Communism under Carter or Clinton. Not even close in fact.

There is nothing to do to reverse it, as its pure partisan fantasy, except perhaps to perscribe some drugs or heavy shock treatments to those who really, deeply believe such crap.

Whats going on in our ‘free’ country? Business as usual, as its been since the inception of our FREE country. Get a grip. :smiley:

-XT

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<sigh> I had a long, well thought out post that’s now lost. In summary, what you’re seeing now is the end of a 40 year breakdown in the national consensus, and that eventually a new political consensus will form.

4

I smell fear. Or, in the immortal words of Brutus:

OK, since you ask nicely:

Am I the only one going crazy? No.

Why am I being attacked for my opinions? You ain’t seen nothing yet. :eek:

Why should I feel guilty? Dunno - what have you done?

Why do I feel pressure to compromise, or even abandon, my core values in order appease the right, and why does the Democratic Party feel the need to do the same? Because they lost the election.

Does the Democratic Party realize how many people they have been abandoning with the appeasement? What appeasement? They ran one of the most liberal Senators they could find - a recycled Viet Nam protestor, for heaven’s sake.

Why is the Democratic Party taking it like a cheap prostitute getting bitch-slapped by her pimp for $20 and a hit of crack?
Because they really don’t have a clue.

This may not be the best place in the world to come for an unbiased view of “why the Dems have returned to their traditional practice of losing the White House”. The SDMB is well to the left of the rest of America, and much of the advice offered hereabouts consists of “let’s stick to the principles of extreme leftism that have served us so well since the 70s”. IIRC, Kerry outpolled Bush on the SDMB by something like 80%. Yet, somehow or other, Bush picked up a clear majority of the voting populace, and in a year of uncharacteristically high turn out.
So if you just want yet another Bush-bashing circle jerk (and nearly all threads that start out as you have done become one of those almost at once), you have gotten off to the best kind of start. If you want non-snarky feedback from all sides, I suspect it will be difficult to obtain from a thread that starts out warning of The Thundering Jackboots of Infamy[sup]TM[/sup]. Because, basically, xtisme is correct - the chances of real fascism in the USA as a result of Bush or anyone else are one with Nineveh and Tyre - it isn’t happening, isn’t going to happen, and claiming that it is just cheapens the discourse as does most other cases of crying “wolf”.

Still, welcome to Great Debates.

[Crispin Glover voice]Tear him apart![/Crispin Glover voice]

Regards,
Shodan

5

hhmmm ? I never thought of Fascism as business controlled. :dubious:

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Okay, but what I see going on fits some of the descriptions of Fascism, not all, but a growing list. Paying reporters to enforce your ideals, making people sign loyalty oaths, screening people to see the president speak, allowing lobbyists to help write bills . . . what else do you see this as?

And the Bush Administration being Fascist does not make Kerry a Communist.

Possibly, I’m always open to this, but I’m not judging him on what Pundits say. I’m judging him by his actions.

I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder. When the biggest welfare queens are crying about spending too much money on welfare . . .

I see it everywhere. Everyday, I hear people discussing politics, very heatedly. In our offices, our homes, get-togethers. Where there used to be little political talk is now full of hate. Just take the ever-present bumper-stickers and Bush signs still littering yards. Look at every single political discussion on these boards, they may start off nice, but they quickly degenerate into poop-flinging and pit threads.

I think I’ll wait and see if/when other posters add their comments before I continue. I am not the most eloquent of posters and someone else may be able to explain something better than I.

:wink:

7

I was referring to the part of Fascism as the practice of Corporatism.

and

if you will also nate that I said “from what I’ve read on other blogs . . .”

8

As I said…business as usual. This is no different than any other modern US presidency as far as the issues you brought up. Certainly you can attempt to paint them in a sinister light if you like, but you are fretting over nothing…at least from the perspective that these in any way show we are on the road to Facism (or Communism for that matter).

Obviously my point sailed past you unfortunately.

Well, it IS in the eye of the beholder. And YOUR perspective isn’t everyone else’s…thank gods above and below. What you have to learn is that, though YOU might think you are right, not everyone (or even the majority in your case) are going to agree with you. Whats ‘right’ for you, isn’t ‘right’ for me…and whats ‘right’ for me isn’t ‘right’ for the guy down the street.

And how is this substantially different than at any other time in US history? During the Civil War we killed each other in massive amounts over differences in politics. During the war of 1812 the North seriously considered leaving the Union because they so disagreed (and villified) Madison. Gods above, even you were old enough to remember Clintons presidency and how contentious it was!! I can’t think of a time when people who were discussion politics weren’t heated in the US. In the days of our founding fathers some of the political rhetoric was so bad that it came to blows in some cases…or duels. I think you have a skewed view of political history if you think its so bad these days.

I think you’ll be happy to wait and see what other posters have to say. Several should be along anytime to re-enforce your world view and make you feel better. :slight_smile:

-XT

9

uhh, that would be note :smack:

10

I see it as authoritarianism and as corruption of the democratic process. Fascism involves both, but these things do not necessarily portend the arrival of fascism. President Fujimori of Peru was no fascist, was he?