Could the U.S. become a fascist state?

[Johnny_L.A]

Prompted by this thread.

@Mike Godwin

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

OK, now that that’s been referenced… In the wake of 9/11 I perceive heightened levels of nationalism in this country. Immigration has always been a contentious issue, and a lot of people still hate ‘Others’. Maybe it’s just that the Internet has given certain people a soapbox they wouldn’t have had in earlier years, but I’m reading a lot of nationalistic opinions that seemed less prevalent before the attacks. I’ve read posts (on sites that are not dedicated racist sites) suggesting that illegal immigrants be shot as they try to cross the border, that Arabs should all be deported, that homosexuals be rounded up and executed, and so forth. Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh spew vitriol that would make Goebbels proud. Bush the Younger and Sarah Palin offer nationalistic messages in a folksy ‘common sense’ manner. Now, it could be coincidence; but during the 2004 elections I noticed that the ‘terror threat level’ was increased whenever it was advantageous to the Republican electoral process. And of course Americans were buffaloed into supporting our invasion of Iraq. Large segments of our society want to ‘give power back to the People’ – as long as they are ‘the People’.

It was pretty scary there, for a while. Obama’s election gave me hope we’re generally more reasonable than we appeared to be for a number of years. Still, it seems there is a lot of chatter about how illegal immigrants, people who on Welfare, a whole religion, and others are The Enemy. In my opinion it’s a dangerous thing to have scapegoats – especially when people are struggling in a poor economy and job market.

I have to admit I’m not prepared to debate the topic. I apologise for that. What I’m after is other opinions to see if I worry too much about the direction this country might take, or if my fears are unfounded. IOW: Please fight my ignorance.

[Odesio]

@Johnny_L.A

Still, it seems there is a lot of chatter about how illegal immigrants, people who on Welfare, a whole religion, and others are The Enemy. In my opinion it’s a dangerous thing to have scapegoats

How does this all add up to fascism? These are problems that have existed since the inception of the United States. Well immigration not necessarily “illegal” immigration.

[John_Mace]

@Johnny_L.A

Now, it could be coincidence; but during the 2004 elections I noticed that the ‘terror threat level’ was increased whenever it was advantageous to the Republican electoral process.

Do you have a cite for this?

And of course Americans were buffaloed into supporting our invasion of Iraq.

This is an almost unprovable assertion. However, let me drag out this cite for the 50th time (or thereabouts) from before the AUMF was voted on:

Oct. 7, 2002
War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry

More people now than just two weeks ago favor giving the United Nations more time to get weapons inspectors back into Iraq.

U.S. SHOULD:

Now
Take military action soon 30%
Give U.N. weapons inspectors time 63%

<snip>

And before giving that approval, Congress should ask more questions, according to most Americans. 51% say Congress has not asked enough; an increase from the number who said so in September. Just 17% say Congress has asked the right amount already and 20% say it has asked too many questions.

HAS CONGRESS ASKED ENOUGH QUESTIONS?

10/02
Asked too many 20%
Asked the right amount 17%
Not asked enough 51%

<snip>

Despite his statements over the weekend about the pressing need to disarm Saddam Hussein, Americans believe Bush is more interested in removing Saddam Hussein than in removing the weapons of mass destruction from Iraq. Americans also believe Bush is being somewhat influenced by his father’s experience with Hussein. However, most see Bush as wanting to work with the United Nations and NOT moving too quickly towards war.

BUSH: MORE INTERESTED IN REMOVING HUSSEIN OR WEAPONS?
Removing Hussein 53%
Removing weapons of mass destruction 29%

This was a week or so before Congress voted on the AUMF. The American people pretty much knew what was going on. Too many Congresscritters were too chickenshit to vote against the AUMF. And once the bombs started dropping, Americans did rally in support of the war. But we were pretty cool about the idea going in.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Odesio

How does this all add up to fascism? These are problems that have existed since the inception of the United States. Well immigration not necessarily “illegal” immigration.

OK, a ‘nationalistic state in which the nation’s problems are blamed on “Others”’. Too long for a thread title.

@John_Mace

Do you have a cite for this?

Something I noticed. Also, I believe it was pointed out by others here.

@John_Mace

But we were pretty cool about the idea going in.

As I said in the OP, these are my perceptions. Before the war started I was working in ‘Reagan Country’. The attitude in discussions at the time was 'Of course Saddam was behind it! We have to turn Iraq into a parking lot! What, do you want to wait until Saddam drops nuclear bombs on us? :eek: ’

As I said at the beginning, I’m not here to debate it. I’m here to learn others’ perceptions.

[Wesley_Clark]

It is unlikely in our current situation in my view.

If the economy truly collapses with 30% unemployment, and the US slides down the totem pole of world powers (overtaken by BRIC nations or the EU), and if large numbers of people feel we are under valid threat from internal and external enemies. Then yeah, I think it is possible.

That is my impression of what gives birth to fascism: Economic uncertainty, major external and internal threats plus the nation seeing a rapid decline in standards of living and political power on the world stage.

But if it takes an 8+ on a 1-10 scale to achieve that, we are at about a 3.

Not only that, but fascist nations of the 1920s and 1930s had large numbers of military veterans (from WW1) who were unemployed to help promote the military state. We do not have that. Many of the people calling the loudest for fascism or military rule (a branch of the teabaggers) tend to be geriatric with no military experience. So Italian & German supporters of fascism were made up of military veterans in their 30s and 40s, US supporters of fascism are people in their 70s on welfare with no military experience. It wouldn’t be the same.

And the concept that the all volunteer military and all volunteer police force will support a fascist government, along with the trimmings (corporate oligarchy, human rights abuses) doesn’t sound realistic to me.

Remember a few years ago when a video surfaced of a US soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff in Iraq? He was widely condemned, and kicked out of the Marines.

We have checks and balances as well as more empowerment of citizens via enhanced media technologies, as well as a world that is more proactive about abuses (in the 21st century, global powers have opinions about abuses in other countries, 100 years ago they didn’t care).

In the 30s media was more centralized, so abuses could be hidden. They can’t be hidden as easily now.

So by and large, no. I think martial law in times of pure crisis is possible, but that would be temporary. But the philosophy of fascism as a stable government sounds unrealistic in the US in the 21st century. We have a higher standard of living, so even intense economic collapse means most people will still have food, basic medicine and shelter (albeit w/o dignity or privacy). And the all volunteer police and military probably won’t support fascist rule for long. Nor would the public support it for long.

The Bush administration didn’t come anywhere near the level of fascism seen in Germany or Italy. The human rights abuses, warfare, military power, lack of checks and balances were bad, but nothing like they were in those societies.
The KKK is probably the biggest grassroots fascist organization the US has. In the 20s they had millions of members and overtook several state governments. But then they fell due to scandal. They always come back during times of social change like the 1860s, 1920s, 1960s, today, etc. But they aren’t as strong as they were in the 20s. The 20s and the KKK was probably the closet the US came to fascism, that and the Business plot of the 30s.

[GIGObuster]

I think first we should be involved in a depression and also have a weak government.
… Ok, there are very disturbing items that show that we are getting there, but it IMHO we need a lot more of that to get us there.

[SteveG1]

@Johnny_L.A

@John_Mace

Do you have a cite for this?

Something I noticed. Also, I believe it was pointed out by others here.

I noticed or suspected the same thing around that time, and I am probably one of those who brought it up at the time.

(re the “terror alert” color changey thingy)

[Chronos]

Of course it could happen: Any nation at all could become fascist, and it’s important for us all to remember that. But at the same time, the best way to avoid going down a slippery slope is to not invoke slippery-slope arguments. We should oppose gradual erosion of freedoms not because such erosion might lead to fascism as an end result; we should oppose it because even if it doesn’t eventually end up as bad as the Nazis, it’s still bad in its own right.

[cckerberos]

@SteveG1

@Johnny_L.A

@John_Mace

Do you have a cite for this?

Something I noticed. Also, I believe it was pointed out by others here.

I noticed or suspected the same thing around that time, and I am probably one of those who brought it up at the time.

(re the “terror alert” color changey thingy)

Going by the wiki article on the system, the color was changed during the 2004 election season (which I’m defining as the period from the first primary to the general election) only once, and that wasn’t a general change:

August 1 – November 10, 2004, for specific financial institutions in northern New Jersey, New York, and Washington, D.C., citing intelligence pointing to the possibility of a car or truck bomb attack, naming specific buildings as possible targets.

There were advisories issued in May and July that evidence pointed to terrorists hoping to disrupt the elections, but the color wasn’t changed.

[Sam_Stone]

Why would you think that fascism would come from the right? Historically, fascism has risen in hard economic times as the state promised things like free universal education, free health care, and a job for everyone provided by the government.

One definition of the difference between fascism and communism is that under communism the state owns and controls the means of production, while under fascism the means of production remain in private hands, but do the bidding of the state. Hitler didn’t nationalize Volkswagen, but he forced them to make the kinds of cars he thought the people wanted and needed. He allowed private businessmen to use slave labor in order to maintain their support.

Tell me… Which party in Washington is promising all kinds of perks to the population so long as they hand more power to the government? Which one just passed a 2,300 page financial reform bill? Which one bailed out auto companies and then forced them to restructure and put union and government representatives on the board? Which leader recently said he was going to ‘put his boot on the neck’ of business’?

Another characteristic of fascism is that there is usually a cult of personality at its center. Which presidential candidate fostered a cult of personality?

When I was in Germany, I visited the Neue Pinakotek, a museum of modern art. They had a bookstore, and one of the books in it was “Images of Hope” (or something like that), an art book containing prints of Obama paintings done by artists around the world. I found it… troubling. Many of the pictures were overtly revolutionary, and many looked fascist. There was a muscular Obama with his sleeves rolled up, looking out over American industry. There was one with the Obama rainbow logo overlaid with a raised fist. There were a couple that looked like they could have come right out of Germany in the 1930’s - angular fonts and all.

I understand that this represents a view of Obama from the far left, and many from foreign artists. But it still had ‘cult of personality’ written all over it.

As for your ‘reading posts that suggested homosexuals should be executed’, there’s a thread on this board right now in which several people on the left are wishing for the death of every member of the tea party.

Another aspect of fascism is its willingness to control the media for political purposes. And it’s the left in America that wants to do that. Republicans may want to keep smut off the air, but Democrats want the fairness doctrine. A liberal reporter on a Journalist listserv wants Obama to simply pull Fox’s broadcasting license and shut them down. Liberals want Air America to start beaming propaganda into the United States. They support public funding of media outlets that spew the politics they want.

The center of gravity on the right at this moment trends towards libertarianism. That’s the opposite of fascism. You have to stretch pretty hard to accuse someone of fascism who wants smaller government, lower taxes, less control from a central authority, the right to keep and bear arms, and the right to free speech. Yes, they want their borders protected. But that’s not fascist. That’s just nationalism.

When fascism comes knocking, it won’t show up dressed in Nazi garb. It will show up dressed as the nice man who just wants to help you make sure you’re cared for. All you need to do is give up a little freedom.

[John_Mace]

never mind

[Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension]

I worry about this issue (as you know from the prior thread), and here are some of the concerns that I have -

1. Increasing political polarization. There aren’t a lot of centrists anymore, and we look back at Gingrich / Clinton as a model of bipartisanship. This strikes me as being unstable in the long term.

2. Less unifying factors in daily life - except for here on the Dope, what brings us together? We’re not chatting about Howdy Doody 'round that water cooler. That said, maybe this is a good thing, as we may not be as easily led.

3. Hi Opal

Oh, and a generalized erosion in civil rights, unwillingness to tolerate otherness, and a willingness to trade freedom - especially other people’s - for some promise of security.

[John_Mace]

@Johnny_L.A

Something I noticed. Also, I believe it was pointed out by others here.

That’s not a cite. Lots of incorrect things have bee “pointed out here by others”.

As I said in the OP, these are my perceptions. Before the war started I was working in ‘Reagan Country’. The attitude in discussions at the time was 'Of course Saddam was behind it! We have to turn Iraq into a parking lot! What, do you want to wait until Saddam drops nuclear bombs on us? :eek: ’

As I said at the beginning, I’m not here to debate it. I’m here to learn others’ perceptions.

If you’re not here to debate, then why did you open this thread in GD?

[GIGObuster]

Good thing he mentioned Hitler.

@Sam_Stone

Why would you think that fascism would come from the right? Historically, fascism has risen in hard economic times as the state promised things like free universal education, free health care, and a job for everyone provided by the government.

Please stop getting your ideas from Glenn Beck.

@Sam_Stone

One definition of the difference between fascism and communism is that under communism the state owns and controls the means of production, while under fascism the means of production remain in private hands, but do the bidding of the state. Hitler didn’t nationalize Volkswagen, but he forced them to make the kinds of cars he thought the people wanted and needed. He allowed private businessmen to use slave labor in order to maintain their support.

Tell me… Which party in Washington is promising all kinds of perks to the population so long as they hand more power to the government? Which one just passed a 2,300 page financial reform bill? Which one bailed out auto companies and then forced them to restructure and put union and government representatives on the board? Which leader recently said he was going to ‘put his boot on the neck’ of business’?

One demonstrated fact, Hitler would not as he dissolved the unions and put the leaders in concentration camps.

The industrialists did not complain much.

@Sam_Stone

Another characteristic of fascism is that there is usually a cult of personality at its center. Which presidential candidate fostered a cult of personality?

You really assume still that the MSM is liberal? The buzz is that many liberals are disappointed with many things that Obama did or is not doing.

@Sam_Stone

When I was in Germany, I visited the Neue Pinakotek, a museum of modern art. They had a bookstore, and one of the books in it was “Images of Hope” (or something like that), an art book containing prints of Obama paintings done by artists around the world. I found it… troubling. Many of the pictures were overtly revolutionary, and many looked fascist. There was a muscular Obama with his sleeves rolled up, looking out over American industry. There was one with the Obama rainbow logo overlaid with a raised fist. There were a couple that looked like they could have come right out of Germany in the 1930’s - angular fonts and all.

The fantasies of Europeans are just that, fantasies.

@Sam_Stone

I understand that this represents a view of Obama from the far left, and many from foreign artists. But it still had ‘cult of personality’ written all over it.

Once again, in Europe. Not much of that in the USA.

@Sam_Stone

As for your ‘reading posts that suggested homosexuals should be executed’, there’s a thread on this board right now in which several people on the left are wishing for the death of every member of the tea party.

I can grant you that, but it is also not as widespread as you may think. Of course in this context are you still trying to propose that liberals are the fascists?

@Sam_Stone

Another aspect of fascism is its willingness to control the media for political purposes. And it’s the left in America that wants to do that. Republicans may want to keep smut off the air, but Democrats want the fairness doctrine. A liberal reporter on a Journalist listserv wants Obama to simply pull Fox’s broadcasting license and shut them down. Liberals want Air America to start beaming propaganda into the United States. They support public funding of media outlets that spew the politics they want.

Air America is a shadow of what it was and I have not seen huge calls from the left to be reconstructed (This leftist thinks they had lousy management and did not deserve to succeed)

@Sam_Stone

The center of gravity on the right at this moment trends towards libertarianism. That’s the opposite of fascism. You have to stretch pretty hard to accuse someone of fascism who wants smaller government, lower taxes, less control from a central authority, the right to keep and bear arms, and the right to free speech. Yes, they want their borders protected. But that’s not fascist. That’s just nationalism.

Here you are ignoring the history of what took place in Germany, Hitler hijacked one of the small socialist parties that appeared in Germany and he and his buddies twisted their message and never had the intention to fulfill what they promised. Likewise, I do not care if you think Libertarians are the opposite of fascism, Socialists in Germany actually were the opposite and populist demagogues are always ready to hijack any new movement.

@Sam_Stone

When fascism comes knocking, it won’t show up dressed in Nazi garb. It will show up dressed as the nice man who just wants to help you make sure you’re cared for. All you need to do is give up a little freedom.

Yep, still trying to propose that liberals are the fascists.

[Wesley_Clark]

@Sam_Stone

Why would you think that fascism would come from the right? Historically, fascism has risen in hard economic times as the state promised things like free universal education, free health care, and a job for everyone provided by the government.

One definition of the difference between fascism and communism is that under communism the state owns and controls the means of production, while under fascism the means of production remain in private hands, but do the bidding of the state. Hitler didn’t nationalize Volkswagen, but he forced them to make the kinds of cars he thought the people wanted and needed. He allowed private businessmen to use slave labor in order to maintain their support.

Tell me… Which party in Washington is promising all kinds of perks to the population so long as they hand more power to the government? Which one just passed a 2,300 page financial reform bill? Which one bailed out auto companies and then forced them to restructure and put union and government representatives on the board? Which leader recently said he was going to ‘put his boot on the neck’ of business’?

Another characteristic of fascism is that there is usually a cult of personality at its center. Which presidential candidate fostered a cult of personality?

When I was in Germany, I visited the Neue Pinakotek, a museum of modern art. They had a bookstore, and one of the books in it was “Images of Hope” (or something like that), an art book containing prints of Obama paintings done by artists around the world. I found it… troubling. Many of the pictures were overtly revolutionary, and many looked fascist. There was a muscular Obama with his sleeves rolled up, looking out over American industry. There was one with the Obama rainbow logo overlaid with a raised fist. There were a couple that looked like they could have come right out of Germany in the 1930’s - angular fonts and all.

I understand that this represents a view of Obama from the far left, and many from foreign artists. But it still had ‘cult of personality’ written all over it.

As for your ‘reading posts that suggested homosexuals should be executed’, there’s a thread on this board right now in which several people on the left are wishing for the death of every member of the tea party.

Another aspect of fascism is its willingness to control the media for political purposes. And it’s the left in America that wants to do that. Republicans may want to keep smut off the air, but Democrats want the fairness doctrine. A liberal reporter on a Journalist listserv wants Obama to simply pull Fox’s broadcasting license and shut them down. Liberals want Air America to start beaming propaganda into the United States. They support public funding of media outlets that spew the politics they want.

The center of gravity on the right at this moment trends towards libertarianism. That’s the opposite of fascism. You have to stretch pretty hard to accuse someone of fascism who wants smaller government, lower taxes, less control from a central authority, the right to keep and bear arms, and the right to free speech. Yes, they want their borders protected. But that’s not fascist. That’s just nationalism.

When fascism comes knocking, it won’t show up dressed in Nazi garb. It will show up dressed as the nice man who just wants to help you make sure you’re cared for. All you need to do is give up a little freedom.

You are confusing statism, libertarianism, fascism and communism all into some mixed up polysci soup that coincidentally supports your pre-existing philosophy. I don’t know how to debate with you anymore.

[Johnny_L.A]

@John_Mace

That’s not a cite. Lots of incorrect things have bee “pointed out here by others”.

I clearly stated that I was not here to debate, but to see what others think.

If you’re not here to debate, then why did you open this thread in GD?

How long do you think it would have stayed in IMHO? :dubious:

[John_Mace]

@Johnny_L.A

@John_Mace

That’s not a cite. Lots of incorrect things have bee “pointed out here by others”.

I clearly stated that I was not here to debate, but to see what others think.

If you’re not here to debate, then why did you open this thread in GD?

How long do you think it would have stayed in IMHO? :dubious:

I have no idea how long it would have lasted in that forum. And since you’re not interested in debate, I won’t bother engaging in one.

[Johnny_L.A]

I didn’t say I wasn’t interested in a debate. I said I wasn’t interested in debating. I’m interested in others’ opinions. If you think this should be in IMHO, then by all means report it.

[Spoke]

@Sam_Stone

Why would you think that fascism would come from the right?

Because people on the right in the US are the ones who champion:

1. Nationalism
2. Militarism
3. Fear of outsiders
4. Racial scapegoating
5. Increased government surveillance via The Patriot Act

[Sam_Stone]

@Wesley_Clark

You are confusing statism, libertarianism, fascism and communism all into some mixed up polysci soup that coincidentally supports your pre-existing philosophy. I don’t know how to debate with you anymore.

I didn’t mix libertarianism with anything. I didn’t mix up fascism and communism - I highlighted the differences between them. And the OP itself is yelling fascism against a group of people who do not match the definition of fascism in any way, other than that they are nationalistic.

The fact is, the fascism of the future won’t be the fascism of the past. Any specific fascist regime has features unique to its time and place.

Frankly, I think the dividing line between fascism and communism is somewhat arbitrary. I don’t think the Democrats meet the criterion of old-style fascism, and neither do Republicans. Democrats still strongly support unions, which is not typically a trait of fascism. Republicans are individualists, which is also not fascist.

But still, the essential character of fascism is a country which has a strong, charismatic leader who builds a cult of personality and uses it to build an oppressive government in the name of restoring former glories and/or giving the people bread and circuses. This also happens to describe Lenin, Mao, and Kim Jong Il. So the similaries between fascism and communism in practice are greater than the differences.

I think it’s more useful to think of politics in terms of statism vs individualism, central control vs distributed control, free markets vs command economies, freedom vs security. This is really the the crux of the divide - not whether your particular ‘great leader’ holds power by kissing the ass of businesses vs kissing the ass of union leaders. Statism results in tyranny no matter what title the guy holding the whip happens to have.