So pldennison, (or should I say Comrade Dennison) we are not a capitalist economy, if a nation is capitalistic, it can’t have labor laws, a booming economy doesn’t help the poor and average folks in Honduras live in the lap of luxury.
I had a suspicion you were a socialist after the private property debate. But I have a suspicion you can offer a more lucid demonstration of your position.
I will put the US against any successful socialist or communist country such as Cuba…no…well, such as Rus…no…or. Nor…no…well hell, I’m stumped. I’ll just have to look that up tonight. .
No, you shouldn’t, because a) it’s a stupid tactic and b) I have never nor, probably, will I ever vote for a member of the American Socialist or Communist parties.
No, we are a mixed economy. Our business community relies heavily on preferential taxation, protectionist import/export practices, government purchases, and military contracts. If our system was purely capitalist, it would never survive.
Incidentally, I ask you again: What does the rising tide do to people without boats? (Hint: They drown.)
I’m not sure what you’re asking here. And no, a booming economy does not, generally stated, help the poor, as you can see by our own current economy, with record-level Dow numbers and record profits from nearly every business segment, being plagued by layoffs.
Well, check yourself, because you’re wrong. I may tend more towards the left than the right, but I believe in private property and I believe in profit. I don’t believe in exploitation and I don’t believe in Objectivism or selfishness as a virtue. I’m a humanist.
Maybe it’d be easier for you to swallow that holiday if you took a more American point of view and celebrated the machine-gunning of 7 people on the north side of Chicago in 1929. Who says our culture should not be emulated?
pldennison, Once again, your original, slightly cryptic post led me to believe that you were taking a more extreme position than you really do. In response to my defense of capitalism you insinuated that if we were a capitalis economy then we would have children working in dangerous conditions and would have 18 hour work days.
Agreed on the mixed economy. Agreed on a reasonable level of government regulation to protect from gross abuses.
What happens when the tide rises and you don’t have a boat? well if you are in the water without a boat, you are going to drown anyway. How long can you tread water?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the unemployment rate is as low as it has been in 30 years. In Colorado it is under 4%. I would say that there are less “drownings” than when unemployment is 12%. (and show me the statistics on these massive lay-offs that you mention.) I am not saying that there are people who can’t partake in our prosperity, but they are few and like it or not we currently do have welfare, SSDI, HUD and other programs that address this.
Bottom line, more people do well in a prosperous economy than in a depressed economy.
People can argue all day that we should have a more equitable economic system like (insert European country here) but we are doing better than they.
No, I was pointing out that, to the extent that we really were laissez-faire capitalist in the late 19th and early 20th century, the system was subject to abuses that nobody really wanted. Hence, our current mixed economy.
Huh. Well, that’s compassionate. Some people, you know, can’t afford boats. I sure hope someone fishes them out before they do drown.
I can’t believe that you would not be aware of the fact that, in recent years, many companies are achieving their record profits by reducing costs through layoffs. According to Challenger, Gray & Christmas, one of the major firms tracking this trend, May 1999 was the fourteenth consecutive month that job cuts were higher than the same month a year ago, and the ninth consecutive month that job cuts exceeded 50,000. It’s a fact. Hell, Procter & Gamble announced 15,000 job cuts on Wednesday, and this is a company whose profts increased 8.2% last quarter, raising their EPS by 7 cents per share.
Sickeningly enough, the very announcement of job cuts usually results in an increase in trading volume and a jump in share price of a company’s stock. In any case, however, the layoff trend is no secret.
Yep, and those are the first programs that the capitalists leap for when we talking about reducing the budget.
I don’t agree. You think the average Joe is affected by the Dow hitting 10,000? Think again. The gap between the richest and the poorest is wider than it has ever been.
Not until we have single-payer health care, at the very least.
IF you would have said Laissez-faire capitalism the first time around, I would have better understood your position.
This layoff thing really gets me. The unemployment rate is decreasing. More people are working. I don’t care if layoffs quadruple as long as there are plenty of jobs.
As unemployment decreases, there are less workers available. As the worker to job ratio decreases, salaries increase to attract the few available workers. Also, the minimum job requirements decrease. Felons, high school drop outs, folks we never would have hired 15 years ago are all now on our payroll because we can’t find enough workers.
Layoffs cut the fat out of businesses. Would it be better to keep around uneeded employees? Remember, we are talking about business which strives to be competetive and make a profit. If there are excess workers they must be cut. That is a cold fact of life.
I just took over a new department. Our company has grown steadily for the last 4 years. 4 years ago we had 12 people. WHen I came in we had 6. About 30% of the work being done was unnecessary or could be outsourced. one employee left and was not replaced and we are still under capacity. Should I hire another person and pay them a salary to sit around and doodle? And the outsourced work over the past 4 years has created jobs at other companies.
One more point, it sounds as if you are arguing that the economy is a zero sum game. it is not. Guaged by the increase in housing sales, I would say that a lot average Joes have been benefitted by the economy. And all of those guys out there banging away with hammers on those new houses are better paid, better off average Joes than they were when the economy was in a slump. I disagree with your perceptions of the plight of the working man.
" Layoffs cut the fat out of businesses. Would it be better to keep around unneeded employees? Remember, we are talking about business which strives to remain competitive and make a profit. If there are excess workers they must be cut. That is a cold fact of life".
I agree with the latter part of the quote, Thor. If there are truly unnecessary employees they must be removed. However, you assume that all layoffs/downsizings are a result surplus employees. Some are a result of simple corporate greed.
At the risk of sounding like a sour grape (I was downsized a few weeks ago as an engineer with a large food company), there weren’t surplus employees in our group. In fact, we were all working overtime on our projects and my manager is now pulling his hair out. The cold fact is that some downsizings are a result of CEOs wanting to keep their bonuses high.
Interestingly enough, the company had a large catered picnic for all remaining employees to celebrate the cost-cutting operation.(adding insult to injury, IMHO) They probably spent more on the catering than on my salary. (Is there a way to draw an eye-rolling smilie face?)
But since unemployment in NE is so low (2%) finding another job is not a big problem, especially if you have computer/engineering/science skills. As far as I’m concerned, the company that downsized me just shot itself in the foot.
You are right about my assumption. There are a few main reasons that I think companies have layoffs:
business is in the toilet and operating costs must be cut e.g. the steel mills most companies in the great depression.
the company is simply overstaffed
The company decides to outsource much of what is being done in-house
An increase in efficiency (e.g. an automated computer system, elimination of non critical proceses) makes jobs obsolete.
the company head is trying to maximize profits over teh short term
In your case, it is probably a good thing that you got out of a company that is making very poor management decisions. I would run to their biggest competitor and try to get hired. They are going to be able to steal some clients away from your old company.
When the unemployment rate is 2%, layoffs lose their danger. Good luck on the job hunt.
There is an awful lot of anti-American sentiment in the world, and I think it can be put down to jealousy. The US is the most powerful country in the world and an awful lot of people don’t like it. Someone has always had to hold that crown, though, and it just so happens that at the moment it’s your turn.
I don’t want to get into some slanging match about the rights and wrongs of American culture - some very good points have been made, and they have laid to rest my rather racist anti-American feelings. I do want to say just one thing, though,
How can a smaller nation deal with the onslaught of a huge American corporation that has decided it’s going to be a part of our culture too? Yesterday Wal-Mart bought Britain’s third biggest supermarket chain, what the hell are we supposed to do about it?
Stop going?
Just one more thing…
Sometimes we can’t help absorbing American culture as it IS imposed on us. I’m getting increasingly annoyed by the amount of American spelling that is being thrust upon the British public by American companies who can’t be bothered to change the type. British English and American English have two very separate spelling systems, and the sooner companies accept that then the better as far as I’m concerned.
Anyway, just minor gripes there, this thread has certainly opened my eyes, and I shall not be damning about Americans ever again. Sorry
There once was a Native American man who flew to Italy and claimed it in the name of his tribe. Just to show how stupid the idea was.
He even had a flag made up for the occasion…
--------->
“…I believe that Drugs should declare War on America…”
spellig errors are meant as an insult, please do not forgive them.
ameriKa…
ive always said that the public is a very stupid bunch of people that do not act on their own personal interest, nor their own personal intellects. as that group of people we call public increases in numbers, it also decreases in intelligence, and where im looking from ameriKa looks to be the hugest collection of people to form a public.
thus making them the dumbest lifeform on this planet. i mean, the public wants clinton for president (hes proved that he is human yes, but is that a trait you are looking for in a man of his status), and talking about movies, please someone tell hollywood to make international versions of movies like id4 and other crappy movies that do not really have to marvel the wonders of the ameriKan flag, i mean… there are others who can save the world too, and without shit for brains people like the director of id4, who made universal soldiers too. no mentioning in names here, dont want to get personal, why, because i have belives in what one person can do, take somebody, almost anybody out of that group im calling public and that someone isnt that bad, that someone has just been brainwashed by ameriKan tv, fatfoot and fastfood, freedom speeches and blinded with the colors of the ameriKan flag. people you are smarter than that, look at yourselves as you want to be, not as anybody else wants you to be. say no you are wrong, stop watching tv, think before you order couse the food is there before you even get hungry, and for everybody, and dont poke your nose into other peoples matters. NEVER EVER hurt another human being!
people who were trying to kill Gunnar at hillsend stopped just before they reached his house and asked themselves “i wonder if hes at home?”, to make sure they sent one ahead to check it out, he crawled onto the roof to take a look inside through the grass, as he peeked inside Gunnars spear stabbed him in the stomach causing him to fall down to the ground, he then crawled to his comrades who asked “was he home?”, the poor hurt man said “that i do not know, but i do know that his spear was!”
from the book “brennu-njálssaga” (icelandic history in fiction from approx. the year 1200, this book is based on facts happening in iceland around the year 1000)
The USA does indeed push its culture on other countries. http://www.usia.gov is the website for United States Information Agency. This taxfunded agency spreads American Culture around the world. Particulary 3rd world countries are given tv-stations and are encouraged to show american shows. In most European countries, USIA have given funds to parties supporting commercial TV (which arrived late in Europe).
This is from the website:
Of course it’s political. And I’m not taking a stand, but to say that the US doesn’t peddle its culture to other countries is just plain wrong.
To say that the US pushes its culture on the world is correct to an extent. But pushing only goes so far. To think that our insistence alone is the determining factor of the spread of US culture is to sell short the people of the world. We are talking about people who are able to make up their own minds, able to decide if they will purchase Nike, Coca-Cola, etc. These are conscious decisions they make to purchase and consume.
It is true as well, that many of these decisions are made by the younger generations who don’t seem to put much thought into it. An example: Last year I was teaching in a Korean Women’s university. One day, in a funk, I asked my students why Korean popular culture emulated Black American culture to such a large degree. This is seen in the music and clothing industry the most. And I added, “why do you do this when you don’t like blacks at all.” Koreans are overt racists and they make no effort to hide their dislike of blacks of any nationality. I gave them plenty of time to think about it and the overwhelming response was that it was the “fashionable” thing to do. They admitted that they only cared about the superficialities of Black American culture and that they certainly did not want to import any other part of their culture.
Now, granted, these were 18-22 year olds, yet they probably represent the largest segment of the population that demands and consumes
US products. Their mindless (in my opinion) acceptance of US culture is THEIR fault, not ours. These people have a choice and they make it everyday. They don’t have to go see US movies, they don’t have to wear Hilfiger clothing, and they certainly don’t have to eat at McDonald’s. They do these things because they want to, that’s it. They find these things appealing for whatever reason.
The fact that so much mindless consumption goes on in the world illustrates the fact that people are people. To suggest that the “public”, as bj0rn calls them, throughout the world are brainwashed by US culture is suggesting that the people are pretty damn stupid to begin with. Of course, this flies in the face of cultural superiority that so many people seem to affect when discussing the US. It’s the only defense they have, because as someone said earlier, other countries are jealous of the US’s power and wealth, just as your officemate is jealous of your new title or raise. People are jealous by nature, I guess.
But taking the position of cultural superiority is the only recourse they have and they soothe themselves by convincing only themselves that they have “culture” and the Americans are vulgar and crass. Perhaps that may be so, but we sure are getting the best of you folks, aren’t we?
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.
bobnat, charlie tan, i agree! alot of things you said is so very true, but i dont think it is a conscious decision, do you deny the influence commercials have on the human mind?
i hope not because if you do you are failing to see how harmful they really are. if macdonalds and coca-cola were not advertised in tv or magazines not so many people would buy those products. i try to avoid those products, due to the illusion they give of utopia and satisfaction in consuming theese products in ads. the mind then creates the connection that it is satisfying to consume theese products regardless of their quality.
facts are what you should act on, everybody knows coca-cola is bad for your teeth (could count more things but no need, i think you know where im heading), smoking is bad for your lungs (tar, not nicotin), macdonalds have even made the food for you before you even order…
thus i reach a conclusion that it is not a conscious decision to watch american films, eat american food and stuff like that, they are just more skilled in the art of lying using various methods which those more weak minded cant see through.
recipy for lying: be dumb so no one can suspect you of treachery, you are not bright enough for that.
bane of society: (a certain country inhibited by the stupidest lifeform on the planet)which boasts itself up with lies, and therefore stupidity.
Bj0rn you seem to be looking for a fight but I am not going to give it to you… Just wanted to point out some issues. To begin with, are all of your misspellings meant as insults or are some of them attributable to ignorance? Sorry, had to get one poke in…
Your argument seems to suggest that other nations are more easily duped by US advertising? I have lived in the US for over 30 years and do not eat at McDonald’s, wear Nike shoes or drink Coca-Cola. Advertising isn’t the issue… What matters is that the US is producing marketable products. Products that are obviously more marketable than some of the “home grown” ones. The US doesn’t force its products on foreign markets, it merely offers them. If foreigners allow them to do business in their countries and the population supports those businesses with their patronage who is to blame? You should be more thankful… US industries supply 1000s of overseas jobs and revenue. If you don’t like it then don’t shop at American owned businesses. If you don’t want American businesses in your country then elect (that is, if you have the right to vote as you may not in some nations) officials who will bar them. Look at China, they have successfully banned many American business. But at what cost? I can’t think of a more backward nuclear power than China.
Before you try rampaging against the US you need to realize that the fault lies with you and whatever nation you live in… YOUR people use American products and patronize American owned businesses and YOUR government allowed the American business access to your land in the first place.
Take some personal responsibility here and save the drama for your mamma…
ducks3:you seem to have misunderstood me, i was not saying that there were us ads in my country, i was saying there were ads made in my country but the product being advertized is mostly from the us, true enough, not your fault, but i wasnt blaming anyone. i was pointing out the damaging effects ads can have without so many people realizing it.
this about my spellig, i did that to get intelligent replies, and i dont consider replies on violent nature intelligent. please read in the thread: i couldnt refrain from asking…is the intelligent life in iceland. for a complete(hopefully) understanding on this subject.
Thor wrote: I had a suspicion you were a socialist after the private property debate. But I have a suspicion you can offer a more lucid demonstration of your position.
What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING?
Why the hell does Pldennison have to defend himself? His political views are his right and you have no right(whether he’s a socialist or not) to stamp him.
Do you know what socialism is? Or is it just Socialist = communist = Bad Guy?
Thor wrote: I will put the US against any successful socialist or communist country such as Cuba…no…well, such as Rus…no…or. Nor…no…well hell, I’m stumped. I’ll just have to look that up tonight. .
Yeah? well… look it up. You’ll find France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway there amogst many other. Put US against them any time.
Cuba and Russia have never been socialist countries. I think you misunderstand socialism for totalitarian communism.
Please know what you’re talking about.
You also said socialism has never worked. Well let’s see…Nomadic native American Indians before Europeans conquered them. Worked just fine…until you fucked them over.
I’m writing this for the defence of all political belives of all posters. To scare people by accusations of being a commie is outright stupid.
