Soldiers in Iraq are just trying to stay alive. Their biggest responsibility is to help keep each other from being killed. They are not there to protect us. Most of them know better.
Anywhere in the US it wouldn’t hurt to go to the grocery store around 10 or 11 on a Sunday morning. Those people in nice clothes are the ones who unswervingly value “American lives.”
Change your shopping day just to have a chance to speak to them, you’ll see. They care about what you have to say if you care to share it.
I didn’t say they were protecting you right now, so your usual shit is still that: shit. The military is a necessity. It functions as multiple people acting in concert. That requires coordination. That requires orders. If someone receives an order that is outside the dictates of agreed military conduct, they do not need to, and should not, follow it. Otherwise, they must. And since all these Iraqis have been killed and it’s ALL illegal, please provide a cite for the thousands and thousands of soldiers that have been brought up on charges.
And how could even you be so plainly stupid to say that our soldiers don’t try—in fact, go out of there way to in ancreased risk to themselves—to minimize the loss of innocent life. Surely you are aware that we could simply flatten Iraq a block at a time from the air or miles away and risk virtually no U.S. casualties. something tells me the families and friends of the 4,000 dead soldiers and the many more injured would love to slap you about the ears for your offensive inanity. Man, you’re a hateful dumb fuck.
But they’re spending your money. You are voluntarily giving it to them with the full knowledge that they will pay, feed, and arm soldiers. Look, I just want you to be happy. Why would anyone want to be part of a country that they detest so. Oh yeah, laziness and hypocrisy. Got it.
Though I doubt you learned much of anything, in your case trying to stand up and be a man would be moronic. Good point.
That doesn’t answer it. Feel free to reread and try again. Also feel free to continue supplying money for our military. They and I appreciate it. And Bush. I’d say he appreciates it the most.
I didn’t say one word about illegal, now did I ? When the murderers write the law, of course they’ll make their own murders legal.
Yeah, sure. Because cluster bombs and napalm are so selective. Because forcing all the males, even kids back into Fallujah so we could claim they were “insurgents” when we killed they was being careful of casualties. Because killing people who step out the door at the wrong moment or out of a car is being careful. We are only being careful of the Iraqis in your masturbatory imagination.
“Don’t diss the troops or you’ll get beat up !” again. :rolleyes:
We don’t flatten Iraq because we want to dominate it, not kill everyone. That doesn’t mean we care about the ones we do kill.
And how do you think the friends and families of the Iraqis we’ve killed, and raped, and tortured, and whose lives in general we’ve ruined would react to your speeches, hmmm ? Those Americans DESERVED to die; the Iraqis didn’t.
And thousands of other things that I DO want. You don’t get to present an itemized list about where your money goes and you know it.
Then what point is being explained? It sure seems like the number of American lives lost is vitally important to know for some people, while the number of innocent civilians who have lost their lives seems far less important to these same people.
Good for you!
Cite? Keep in mind that I was in the military as well. There was/is a strong element of racism/bigotry in the military, and “gook”, “sand nigger”, “towel head”, “faggot”, “queer”, “slant eyes”, “commie (and not just when referring to actual communists)”, etc. aren’t exactly unheard of terms among soldiers. Hell, we had major race issues within our own company several times over the years.
I’d argue that true soldiers (as well as airmen, sailors, and Marines) only kill when they are in the right, and would disobey orders to kill otherwise, but I realize that that isn’t a universally shared ideal.
And they’re spending your money to provide health care to illegal immigrants, peform swearing in ceremonies on the Quran, and some of it might even be spent on the paperwork required certify gay marriages, yet you’re still here.
I, for one, think you have every right to be here, and to fight those things you don’t like from the inside (even as I hope you never succeed). Hell, that’s what our country is all about. In other words, your argument is shit.
I understand Shagnasty’s position, and I vehemently disagree with it. It is no more human nature to undervalue the lives of those in other tribes than it is human nature to fling one’s poo when angered. Anyone living under this kind of justification for being okay with this war is absolutely immoral.
I am not a pacifist. This doesn’t mean I dehumanize those whose actions I believe require a violent response, or that I think their lives are worth less than mine – worth no more than that of a chicken! – because of where I was born.
Well, nobody’s saying that the lives of non-Americans are worth no more than that of a chicken, he was just pointing out that to most people (and if you’re an exception to that, good for you - you have a gift of extraordinary sympathy, I guess) the lives of their own countrymen or neighbors or whatever are more meaningful than the lives of people across the world.
Most of us feel some kind of kinship with our fellow countrymen. It’s just a fact of life, I think. It’s unfortunate, because we should value everyone’s live equally, ideally, and not find it any easier to drop bombs on them because they look different or speak a different language. But the fact is, we just don’t operate that way, at least not when it comes to war.
By the way, you say “Anyone living under this kind of justification for being okay with this war is absolutely immoral.” Well I don’t think we’re talking about people who are justifying the whole war in Iraq with this attitude, just the fact that people react more strongly to American casualties. For the record I oppose the war. I’m not trying to justify it at all.
Not surprisingly, you miss the main point. It’s not that any disagreement with the war or the role of the soldiers require anyone to take any specific action. I have friends that disagree with me on any number of issues. Some vehemently. Some of them just vent, some write letters or otherwise try to change things. I am not of the opinion that they each need to take some drastic action, like stop paying taxes or leave the country, or shut up. The thrust of point with The Shithead, which you should have been able to see from my posts in this thread, is that when one’s opinion of our country falls so low for him to wish death—repeatedly—on every American and uniform, and that he feels they don’t represent him (they do) he should do something other than flap his imbecilic gums. When he says he feels sooo strongly about this issue that he wishes them death (and I won’t even get into the broad-brushing here), yet does nothing but yammer on an anonymous message board, he needs to be called for being the lazy, cowardly hypocrite that he is.
Given the degree of attention you evidently give my posts, you might have noticed that with all the people who disagree with me on these boards, that I haven’t given them the advice I’ve given The Shithead. So, it is not a matter of disagreeing, it’s a matter of someone walking the walk. And when I start wishing death on a group of people because I don’t want to be associated with them as an American, you can call me to the mat the way I have called out The Shithead. Until then, you can feel good about attempting to come to the defense of the person who wishes death upon every man and woman who has chosen to put themselves at great risk to wear the U.S. uniform. Some of whom you might know personally. Some of whom are family members of people you know, like and respect. No doubt, YMMV.
Garbage. You are just hoping that I’m actually stupid enough to rush out and get myself beaten up or jailed or killed. None of your proposed actions on my part would have any other effect than that. Except for leaving the country, which would be rather pointless, unless you are aware of the address of some Utopia that agrees with me in all ways - since that appears to be the standard you think I’m supposed to aspire to. And you’ve yet to explain why “walking the walk” means doing what YOU want me to do.
And making obscenities out of my name is so grade school.
You wish death on the Iraqis by “supporting the troops.”
In fact, that’s the elephant in the living room you and your fellow monsters are ignoring. You support the troops, you support the slaughter of innocent Iraqis. And all your whining about how terrible and evil I am for wanting an invading army destroyed is worse than hypocrisy. You want the invader’s victims killed instead.
Pretty damned small risk. It’s the Iraqis who are dying right and left. And the American soldiers in Iraq are unworthy of compassion anyway.
I’m unconvinced. It’s certainly human nature to care more for one’s relatives or friends, but caring more for an anonymous, faceless person wearing a green uniform than for an anonymous, faceless person wearing a blue uniform doesn’t appear to me to be “natural”. It’s an artificial constuct, and I honestly can’t say that I care more for an anonymous french soldier than for an anonymous American soldier or Iraki soldier, all things being equal (By “all things being equal”, I mean assuming that I don’t have a particular reason to support one side rather than another).
Der Trihs : I like you, really do. You appear to me (at least) to be an intelligent and sometimes quite a witty bloke.
But FFS man you go overboard at times with your condemnation of US troops in Iraq.
Why you should wish death on your fellow countrymen is baffling.
Please don’t make me dislike you, please
I think I understand a lot of what you are trying to say, but how does the above not make you a murderer, too? Would you really smile? Wouldn’t you be sad that these people have become murderers and thus had to be killed? Wouldn’t you rather remove them nonviolently? Can you see how the quoted statement sounds a bit sociopathic, and just as undiscriminating as “kill all those ragheads”?
That’s the point; kind of hard to fight a war when you’re chasing after all that poultry. 
We’re not comparing the death of someone I know and love with that of a stranger; we’re comparing stranger Americans with stranger Iraqis, and you’re saying it takes a gift of extraordinary sympathy for me to feel as bad that Iraqis die as that Americans die. You’re saying that just because another human being was born in the same country as me, I should care more when they die, and not only that, but it’s somehow justifiable as natural to do so. The life of some random guy from Idaho is magically imbued with more worth simply because I live in New Jersey? No.
And there’s another reason people focus on the American numbers. They’re so much shockingly, horrifyingly lower that if we printed both sets regularly we might start to feel slightly bad about the sheer amount of carnage and suffering done in our names. Tell me, Argent Towers, how many dead Iraqis do you think add up to the worth of one dead American, human nature wise?
No, because “all those ragheads” aren’t guilty of anything in particular. The American troops in Iraq are all guilty of aggressive war, conquest and occupying Iraq. Killing off an invading army isn’t murder. The only difference between me and anyone else hoping for the defeat of an invading army, is that it’s an AMERICAN invading army that I want to see destroyed. Would I be getting all this flak if way back during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan I had been talking about how I’d like to see the invading Soviet army all killed ?
I’m not a pacifist. I’m not anti-military. I’m not even anti-American military, as such. I’m hostile to the American military right now, because of what they are doing right now.
How in the hell do you know what he does to combat the issues? He could be protesting, writing letters to his congressmen, discussing the issue with others, etc. or he could even just vote, which is one of the traditional ways we fix things here. Also, he doesn’t wish death on soldiers because they are soldiers, nor because they are American. He wishes death on them because they are killing innocent people in a war that never should have happened. I happen to disagree with him to a point, mainly because I’m just as able to put myself in their shoes as I am in the shoes of the Iraqi civilians. While he’s correct that they are doing far more harm than good at this time, I also know that it’s a hell of a lot harder to disobey military orders than to be insubordinate to a boss in the civilian world. The difference is that I’ve never had a boss that decided that my job requirements were such that they would result in the killing of innocent people on some unwarranted wild goose chase. With that said, I AM disappointed that more don’t put themselves at risk and go against their superiors. I’d like to think that I would, but I can’t know for sure as I wasn’t in that situation.
I should also point out that I never got the impression that Der Trihs despises America. He simply despises what we have become and what we are doing. He’s far from alone in that, as I and many others are in the same boat, and again, the best way to change that is from inside the country.
Wearing a uniform isn’t really that big of a risk, even today. I even wore one myself once. It’s a hell of a lot riskier to be a shoe salesman in Iraq. I also don’t imagine he’d wish death on the military members if they were actually doing what you claim their job is, i.e. defending our country. Hell, he might very well take up arms beside them in that case. We’re not defending anything, other than potentially the profit margins of various corporations with ties to the current administration, so they aren’t doing some heroic job that require our unwavering support. The only people actually defending their country in this mess are the “insurgents” in Iraq, so can I assume you support them?
The above assumptions on Der Trish’s stance could very well be wrong, and he’ll obviously correct me as he sees fit. In fact, if they are wrong, I reserve the right to join in chastising him, as I see fit.
From the Daily Show’s America: The Book, the Body Count Conversion Rate:
What about the military of other countries who allied with the US?
Obviously I’m referring to the British, would you have those killed the same as you would the American forces?
Before you answer, remember, we were conned as well, we believed the lies
Yes, I feel the same way about them. And no, they weren’t conned; they knew better. Everyone who paid attention knew better; that’s why the war was so very unpopular worldwide.