American logic and grammar

There’s this thing I hear from American TV often whereby someone says, when they mean that there is a variety within a group, something like “all cars are not blue”.

By context it’s easy enough to see that what is meant is “some cars are blue, and some are not”

But a British person would see that as “there are no blue cars within this set of cars”, and would rather say “not all cars are blue”, leaving the implication that some cars are for the listener to fill in. At least in my experience.

Is it only me that sees this difference, and where does it come from ?

USA “all cars are not blue” = some cars are not blue
UK “all cars are not blue” = there are no blue cars

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Let’s move this over to IMHO.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

It’s a question really. But I don’t mind

I can’t say I’ve heard that as a typical thing. I think most Americans would say “Not all cars are blue.”

I think you first need to establish this difference exists. I don’t think it does.

But this prompts an example -

You would (possibly) say “all question forum threads are not questions”
Whereas I would say “not all question forum threads are questions.”

Or maybe not if you’re Canadian.

At this point, the difference you perceive seems to be a personal opinion rather than based on actual evidence. Until it’s been established that the difference is real, IMHO is more appropriate.

I would say “Not all question forum threads are questions.” The way you have it sounds awkward and wrong to me.

The first example that comes to mind is “All that is gold does not glitter” written by the english writer J.R.R Tolkien and unless I misunderstand is intended to mean “not all gold glitters” and not “gold never glitters”.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18251035&postcount=3
I asked this a while back and got this response:

There are plenty examples online - I just google “all are not the same”

“all lactase preparations are not the same”

In the UK I would take that to mean that each lactase preparation is different from the others.

But going by context I know it means there is a variation in lactase preparations, but not necessarily that they are all different from each other.

Let’s wait for a Brit to confirm eh ?

That’s an interesting example, because usually the phrase goes “all that glitters is not gold”.

That’s it. I knew it wasn’t just me. Thread can go back in Questions forum now :stuck_out_tongue:

Really the only time I hear it is from American film and TV, the Tolkein example is much less usual in my experience.

Yes, and it is much older. Shakespeare used a variant “All that glisters is not gold”.

That provides no evidence that the usage is more prevalent in the US than in the UK.

If you’re not British, how are you an authority as to what it means in the UK?:dubious:

“Same” is a different case than “blue.” Individual things are blue. Collections are the same. It only takes one thing in the group to be different in order for the collection to be called “not the same.” “All lactase preparations” circumscribes the group being discussed. “Not the same” describes how they are not uniform. Thus, if even one is different, “all lactase preparations are not the same.”

Would you have your same interpretation if I said “All lactase preparations are not uniform” or “all…are not interchangeable”?

The post doesn’t provide any evidence that the phrasing is more common in the US than the UK.

In my experience, I don’t recall hearing it very commonly in any context.

Even better. But the only reason I notice it at all is that it stands out so much from my daily experience, and I have to figure it out for a little moment when I do, which is why I’m pretty sure there’s a national difference, generally speaking.

All Americans don’t put the all before the not.
Not all Americans put the all before the not.

That’s why i was asking.

OK I’ll rephrase that, let’s wait for another Brit, in addition to myself, to confirm. Let’s also stipulate that said Brit is sound in mind and body, and has broad experience of conversational and electronically mediated language both native and originating in the USA.

An even simpler example of ambiguity is the imperative
No smoking allowed.
Literally it should mean “you are permitted to not smoke” which is of course not the intended meaning.

This is one case where the often-ambiguous Thai language gives better results; “Smoke not may” and “Not smoke may” are distinct sentences with very different meanings. (Another valid sentence is “Not smoke not may” meaning that smoking is required!)