American media & businesses say, "Jesus Who?"

The BBQ Pit
141

Thanks, Homebrew! Very well explained!
Oh, and…

I didn’t realize this was a theory. I thought it was pretty much acctepted that Yule and Solstice Winter feastdays predate Christianity, and that the Christian holidays were aligned with the old wheel calendar to make their festivals/religion more attractive to the newly converted. Aside from Christmas and the Yule/Solstice, there’s that whole Ostara to Easter thing, too, centered around the Vernal Equinox.
FB
Watcher of all the “A History of (insert your holiday here)” on TLC, the History Channel, et al.

142

Well then, I demand more gifts. I haven’t gotten squat over the last few years, and it’s really starting to piss me off. Get a move on, people! :wink:

As for the OP…get over it.

I wish my friends and family a Happy Holiday season, simply because there are so many holidays celebrated this time of year. And there’s just nothing wrong with acknowledging the fact that all of them exist.

If you want to wish someone a Merry Christmas, go ahead. Happy Holidays, fine. Or, as I’ll be saying to my Jehovah’s Witness colleague, “Have a nice break, and I’ll see you Friday!”

Fact is, the holiday is upon us, and while you can be as pissed as you want to be, it isn’t going to change. The Christians aren’t going to stifle the non-Christians. The Pagans are still going to celebrate Yule, the Jews are still going to celebrate Chanukah (which just happens to fall during Christmas this year–the date does change from year to year), the athiests are going to do whatever they want, and the merchants are going to do their level best to make a buck off of everyone, regardless of which holiday they celebrate, if any.

If you want the holiday to be more Christian, well, listen to what others here have already said. Do something more Christ-like. Sure, the media and the merchants try to push stuff on you. But no law says you have to do what media and merchants say. You own yourself. Celebrate the holiday as you see fit. And if rebelling against convention and not buying into the media blitz is what you want, then don’t, dammit. Tell your loved ones you don’t want gifts. Give your time to people who need, for whatever reason. Or go to church. Or follow the OT and pray quietly and alone.

Me? I’m a pagan polytheist. I’ll be spending Christmas Eve with my family. Let me tell you what that family includes:

My soon-to-be ex-husband, who is Pentecostal.
My brother, who isn’t anything, his Catholic wife.
My sister and brother-in-law, who currently aren’t practicing anything, but my sister was placed for adoption at birth and raised by a Jewish family
My mom and her life-partner, Mike. Mike is Jewish, and my mother is in the process of converting. Mike will be bringing his menorah to dinner, and at some point during the evening, he’ll be lighting it and we’ll be listening as he sings his prayers.
Several children, all under the age of six, who don’t yet give a hoot about religion and are only there for the presents.

In other words, Jesus isn’t the only reason for the season. There’s an assload of reasons, and Jesus is just one of them.

143

yosemitebabe, I used the inclusive term “holidays” specifically because it includes the holidays that different people I know celebrate. Some of the gifts I’m wrapping will be given to people for Christmas, some will be given for Chanukah, and some will be given to people who celebrate neither holiday, but whom I would like to include in the seasonal joy. This year I’m favoring a lovely pink toile wrapping paper topped with white ribbons and bows. It’s my holiday wrapping paper, but there are no Santas, wise men, or menorahs in sight. For my parents’ gifts I purchased some really fun paper that has “Mom’s Gift” or “Dad’s Gift” printed all over it.

That woman in the Santa hat buying the Merry Christmas cards? Maybe she’s a pagan or a Hindu with a sense of fun about the season and a lot of Christian friends. “Happy holidays” expresses the sentiment perfectly without limiting it to one religion or religious observance. If someone that you personally know is Christian, by all means, wish him or her a Merry Christmas. But in the general retail environment, where you really have no idea about the religious activities of your patrons, the most inclusive language is still the best.

Merry Christmas! :wink:

144

Which holiday, other than Christmas, has Santa in it?

If she’s wearing a Santa hat, the odds are extremely high that she’s celebrating Christmas. If she’s not celebrating Christmas but still wants to wear a Santa hat, do you really think that she’ll get bent out of shape if someone wishes her “Merry Christmas” anyway?

I’m curious—if you were an employer, would you insist that your employees say “Happy Holidays” to the lady who was wearing the Santa hat, buying Christmas cards, wearing a glittery t-shirt that has the slogan “Merry Christmas” on it and a picture of the nativity scene? Would you still expect that your employees say “Happy Holidays” to her, “just in case” she wasn’t celebrating Christmas? I mean, really?

What about if a bunch of nuns come in and say that they are buying stuff for the church’s Christmas service. Is it okay to say “Merry Christmas” to them? :wink:

145

  1. DtC, I don’t want this to get too personal, but you often pull out the religon is a fairy tale aurgment. That it a put down. I’m sorry, but what Guin talks about with “enlightened” elitisim is what I’m talking about. IIRC, you have made the made-up crack in this thread.

  2. I beleive that the pagan celebrators still were celebrating towards a God. Itdoesn’t matter- Christmas with the carols, the angel on the tree, etc, is obvious to be non-secular. One should not sit there and put down the beleifs of another 364 days of the year and then want to sing “O come O Ye Faithful” On Dec. 25. I’m sorry, but that is not wrong

In every sort of aurgument, I think we are missing the OP’s point. She is mad at the materialism taking over December.

I think you and I both know this is lacking. People are celerbrationg God, not tradtion.

Do what you want, but it sound like you are having your cake…

146

I made the crack in response to a put down of Kwanza.

“…obvious to be non-secular?” Is English your second language?
You can whine all you want but Christmas is secular for millions of people, including me. I don’t sing “Come All ye Faithful,” I sing “Grandma got run over by a Reindeer.”

Christmas is not an exclusively Christian holiday.
What’s so hard to understand about that one simple fact?
The way I see it, Christians have no right to put down Pagans the rest of the year and then try to horn in on the Yule celebration every winter. I’m sorry but that’s just wrong.

Nope, I assure you, I’m just following tradition. Christians do not have a patent on gift giving and family time. To me it’s all about family. God never enters my mind.

147

I’m not even going to try to encompass all the arguments going on in this thread, but this point simply must be contradicted. Some people are celebrating God. Some are not.

My family, for example, have all been atheist for at least several generations. We don’t say prayers, we don’t go to church unless someone’s getting married, and our sense of humor (when not around people who might be offended) is sometimes irreverent in the extreme.

But we celebrate Christmas. We put up a tree, we travel from several states around to be together, we give presents, etc. In short, we observe all the elements of Christmas that don’t actually deal with Jesus. Oh yeah, and we usually drink a lot. Christmas is loads of fun for us.

We don’t tell others how to spend December 25; don’t tell us how we should do it, either. It can be a religious holiday, and I totally respect others’ right to that; but for some, such as us, it’s a cultural holiday and nothing more.

148

Those secular eye-motes are just fucking maddening, I know.

Happy holidays!

149

So… putting on a Santa hat automatically makes you a Christian?

:confused:

I don’t even think the Pope’s miter (mitre?) has that power…

She might get bent out of shape if someone wishes her a “Merry Christmas.” Is it really THAT important to you to say such a greeting over Happy Holidays??

(FTR, atheist, I’ve worn Santa Hats, and I’d embarrass you if you wished me a Merry Christmas. I wouldn’t tear into you, but wouldn’t you feel foolish stammering, “Oh, I just thought… cuz of the… with the… ummm…”?)

150

You’re up to telling people what they’re celebrating? :confused:

I’ve got a tree in the living room, presents wrapped, a wreath on the door, lights hanging off the roof – and not a single cross, crucifix, Bible, angel, or any other religious icon in view. The only themes are either Santa Claus or pagan vegetation, and if you come over and tell my family that we’re celebrating God, we’ll gladly laugh in your face.

Happy holidays! :smiley:

151

Courtesy is obviously your second nature. :rolleyes:

No, English is not my second language. Oh and look, I’m not perfect either. But since you are, I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

By the way, you misspelled Kwanzaa, to prick your ego balloon.

[qoute]
You can whine all you want but Christmas is secular for millions of people, including me. I don’t sing “Come All ye Faithful,” I sing “Grandma got run over by a Reindeer.”

Christmas is not an exclusively Christian holiday.
What’s so hard to understand about that one simple fact?
The way I see it, Christians have no right to put down Pagans the rest of the year and then try to horn in on the Yule celebration every winter. I’m sorry but that’s just wrong.

Nope, I assure you, I’m just following tradition. Christians do not have a patent on gift giving and family time. To me it’s all about family. God never enters my mind. **
[/QUOTE]

  1. I, unlike you, don’t put them down. I disagree with them. Huge difference. You can disagree without belittling.

Let me get this straight. I will assume that you, as I, had Christmas handed down, as in an older person of influence down to you. Great, and I honestly don’t care if you chug beers or pray all day in church. You’re so-called tradition was derived from the Christian tradition, which may or may not of been derived from another tradition. Stop acting as if you don’t know that in the back of your head. What I do doubt is that you are not celebrating the any tradition that has to do with the Sun or the Son. You are taking advantage of a religious holiday so you can be enlightened atheist as well as hang up stockings over your fireplace, or put the angel/ star on the tree, or what have you.

Listen, I don’t want to be harsh, but you are not making this easier. And I really don’t care what you do, but that does not make it okay.

152

Blimey! I misspelled the code. I’m sorry about that.

153

Wait a minute. Wait a minute…

I thought we were discussing the fact that many non-Christians celebrate Christmas, as a secular holiday. Or are you claiming that it is a strictly Christian holiday that all non-Christians cannot, by definition, celebrate? Because I’ve got some atheist friends who’d be really surprised by such news.

Am I missing something here? Seriously, am I? Do Jewish kids or Muslim kids have any tradition where they wait for Santa to come down the chimney? I mean, really? I’ve never heard of such a thing, but maybe I’ve just been out of the loop. I thought Santa Claus was strictly associated with Christmas.

Is it that important to you that I don’t? What is this—you are trying to control what other people say to yet other people? If you don’t want me to say “Merry Christmas” to you, that’s no problem. Just tell me so, I’ll make a point to remember. But I see no reason why you or anyone else should give a damn if I say “Merry Christmas” to the pack of nuns coming in to buy stuff for the Christmas service, or to the lady wearing the Santa hat, and buying the Christmas cards, and wearing a t-shirt with “Merry Christmas” on it and a scene of the three Wise Men. What’s it to you, exactly?

To be honest, I wouldn’t feel foolish and I wouldn’t stammer. I figure you kind of asked for it by wearing the hat.

You wear a hat that symbolizes a holiday that many non-Christians celebrate in a secular way, and you think I’m gonna feel all embarassed because I assume you are celebrating this holiday (in a secular way)? Nope. I would not feel foolish. Don’t wear the hat unless you want people to assume you are celebrating it (in a secular or non-secular way). It isn’t as if someone is spitting on you and uttering a curse when they say “Merry Christmas.” Since Christmas is celebrated in a secular way all the time, what’s the big deal?

Now, if I said something you (in sanctimonious tones) about the “proper” way to celebrate Christmas, or what Christmas “really” should mean, then that would be over the line since I should not assume to know in what way you are celebrating. But just to wish you Merry Christmas? For that you’d try to make me feel “foolish”? Good grief.

154

yosemitebabe, while I mildly disagree with you on the “Happy holidays!” thing, that post is so fucking beautiful I want to frame it.

155

From what I can tell, you do not play the “enlightened atheist” card, therfore my aurgement is not with you. While I still disagree with your beleif, I’m afraid your situation doesn’t fit.

as I said:

Christmas, to me, pagan, Christian, whatever is centered around God or gods.

** rjung** I know I said the quote above in a previous post which should answer your question. Also, whenever we express an idea or opinion about anything, that in theory could be seen as telling someone what to do/think. So, maybe I am. Like I said, do what you want, but that doesn’t make it okay in my opinion.

156
  1. I, unlike you, don’t put them down. I disagree with them. Huge difference. You can disagree without belittling.

Let me get this straight. I will assume that you, as I, had Christmas handed down, as in an older person of influence down to you. Great, and I honestly don’t care if you chug beers or pray all day in church. You’re so-called tradition was derived from the Christian tradition, which may or may not of been derived from another tradition. Stop acting as if you don’t know that in the back of your head. What I do doubt is that you are not celebrating the any tradition that has to do with the Sun or the Son. You are taking advantage of a religious holiday so you can be enlightened atheist as well as hang up stockings over your fireplace, or put the angel/ star on the tree, or what have you.

Listen, I don’t want to be harsh, but you are not making this easier. And I really don’t care what you do, but that does not make it okay. **
[/QUOTE]

[taking off the gloves]

Listen, you stupid bitch, you do NOT get to decide what is or fucking is not “ok” for me to do on December 25.

It is NOT your fucking holiday.

YOU are “taking advantage” of a fucking PAGAN celebration to commemorate a mythical event. That’s fine with me, I really don’t give a shit but just because you decide to attach a lot of mythological significance to a perfectly good solstice party does not mean that I am in any way obliged to play along.

The traditions of those who celebrate Christmas without any religious intent are just as fucking meaningful as for those who do. Don’t be so fucking sanctimonious.

And by the way. I haven’t put down Christians. Just because I don’t believe in it doesn’t mean I’m putting it down.

Happy Solstice.

157

Hear hear.

One of my bigest rants with Christmas is how everyone wants to spread the “christmas goodwill”. The decide this one month out of the year they’ll donate food to food banks and toys to tots because “no one should spend christmas without food and toys”

Ok, fine. But how about the other 364 days in the year?

158

heavy sigh Look, Christmas WAS derived from another tradition! Winter Celebration roughly aligned to the end of December? Holly? Trees? Candles? Yule Log? A Feast? We were all* doing that BEFORE you injected Jesus into it.
Please stop saying ‘may or may not’ or ‘theory’.

I seriously suggest you educate yourself on the origins of your holiday. Jesus does not have the monopoly on tradition at this time of year. You think he does because that’s what you celebrate. Christians have morphed many older traditions to suit their needs.

Many folks recognize Jesus and the manger as a lovely story, and equate it with stories of Reindeer and Santa. They don’t believe it really happened, though. This does not mean they have no right to celebrate during this time of year. This does not mean they have to honor your God in order to be allowed to celebrate.

FTR, I am Pagan, my husband is an atheist, and I have allowed my ex husband to baptize my two eldest children into Christianity. My family is Christian (half Baptist and half Church of Christ- if you have any knowledge of religious doctrine in the South, you know how heated a debate that can get), and my husband’s family is Catholic on one side, Hindu on the other. STILL, we manage to celebrate this season with a fraction of the stupidity and elitism that some folks are spewing forth in this thread on Their Holiday

Guys, you can use our evergreen tree for your holiday about Jesus, but that doesn’t mean you have to stick it up your ass. Most of us just decorate it and put pretty lights on it.

FB

  • I use all in the sense that anyone who was celebrating was celebrating something other than the birth of Christ.
159

**

Do what you want. As usual, being an absolute jerk and avoiding the debate. I’ve made my points.

Well! Since I shouldn’t be trying to express an opinion, neither should you. Time to shut down the board!

DtC, come on. I mean really- come on. You put down Christians all of the time on this board. I may not have thousands of posts, but I’ve been here a while. Listen, I often agree with you, just not on this subject. It is obvious to me that no two people will agree 100% of the time.

I do not want to dig it up. You don’t want me to; It will show how you are wrong.

If I post-

“Atheists - can’t YOU SEE how stupid you are! You believe in a fantasy! Go to church before God strikes you with lightning!!”*

…I’m guaranteed a pitting. You pull it all of the time and usually get away with it.

A blessed Christmas to you. May you lose some of your anger towards strangers.

*pure example, people. Atheists and I disagree, but I don’t think they are stupid or will be struck down.

160

“Most folks”, in what I see you mean, is a reference to Quasi-christians? I’m going to avoid that debate in this thread, but I would think that quasi, full, what have you beleive Jesus was born.

Celerbrate all you want. I still take issue with you* singing “Silent Night” or putting the Angel on my tree, then on Dec. 26 telling me how stupid I am for beleiving in a Fairy tale.

Where I live a atheist wanted to forcibly take down all public displays of the manger at Christmas (we are talking people’s yards here). How is that for forcing how someone celerbrate- use your pagan derived decor all you want, but I will no be forced to see the manger on your front lawn? Yes, I know this is extreme. But I would think she was not alone- she gained enough attention for national coverage.

*not you, per se.