American Patriotism

Great Debates
1

I once had Americans pegged as the most patriot people on the planet, now I’m none to sure.

Constant GWB bashing, criticism of your Govt. and armed forces, persons on this board who appear to hate the country of their birth…and for no apparent reason.

I’ll admit that Bush is not the brightest star in the sky but he is your elected
president and as such surely he is deserving of your support. Maybe he will win another term, maybe not. Who is to say that his successor will be any better or worse than he is.

You may rest assured that whoever succeeds GWB then that person also will make mistakes, will you then turn on him in much the same way

Blair is my elected Prime Minister and while I may not agree with some of his actions I have to respect them to a certain degree.

Yours is still a great nation in all senses, you have your problems of course, but then again what country doesn’t?.

You were once a God fearing nation but this has also flown out the window from what I can gather by the constant repudiation of an Almighty which I witness on this board.

So tell me, are Americans just a fiercely patriotic as they once were or have I got the wrong end of the stick

2

Under the US Constitution Bush cannot serve another term, even without losing his majority in Congress he is already a lame duck.

It is also debateable whether Bush was actually elected, there was a bit of confusion over the count.

The SDMB is not necessarily representative of the USA as a whole, for a start the spelling is a lot better :slight_smile:

Being from the UK myself, I’m just ashamed of Blair - it is not pleasant having a leader that is … well embarrassing.

3

[QUOTE=chowder]
I’ll admit that Bush is not the brightest star in the sky but he is your elected president and as such surely he is deserving of your support. Maybe he will win another term, maybe not.

[/QUOTE]

He can’t win another term.

4

Poor Americans. Most of us foreigners accuse them of being too patriotic, and now you’re telling them they’re not patriotic enough. They can’t win with us, can they?

chowder, the SDMB is so not indicative of the US majority views. When was the last time you visited? I was there in late 2005 and can assure you that patriotism and being “under God” are alive and well, and in your face. Certainly where I was (LA, TN, and NYC), anyway. Maybe if you went to San Francisco or somewhere you might draw a different opinion, but SF doesn’t represent the majority of the country.

5

Well, first and foremost, you need to know that the readership (or more accurately, the postership) of this board is not representative of the nation at large.

There is more that I could say, but it would only lead to vigorous argumentation, and it’s late and I must get to bed. I will address one other of your questions first though. You asked: “You may rest assured that whoever succeeds GWB then that person also will make mistakes, will you then turn on him in much the same way”

The answer is, it depends: If he/she is a Democrat, he/she will get a pass from most of the board’s posters regardless of any malfeasance, just like Bill Clinton got a pass from from the feminist movement. If he/she is a Republican, you can count on four to eight more years of non-stop president-bashing around here, though it will be less war-centric and geared more toward that particular president’s personality and/or the problems he/she may be trying to contend with. America-bashing, however, is likely to continue undiminished, as it has among the collegiate and post-collegiate crowd in this country since the late sixties.

6

[QUOTE=Secret Volcano Lair]
He can’t win another term.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, was unaware of that :smack:

7

[QUOTE=jjimm]
Poor Americans. Most of us foreigners accuse them of being too patriotic, and now you’re telling them they’re not patriotic enough. They can’t win with us, can they?

chowder, the SDMB is so not indicative of the US majority views. When was the last time you visited? I was there in late 2005 and can assure you that patriotism and being “under God” are alive and well, and in your face. Certainly where I was (LA, TN, and NYC), anyway. Maybe if you went to San Francisco or somewhere you might draw a different opinion, but SF doesn’t represent the majority of the country.
[/QUOTE]

Last time was in 2004, before that 2002, I like the USA and have many pals over there.

8

[QUOTE=chowder]
I once had Americans pegged as the most patriot people on the planet, now I’m none to sure.

Constant GWB bashing, criticism of your Govt. and armed forces, persons on this board who appear to hate the country of their birth…and for no apparent reason.

I’ll admit that Bush is not the brightest star in the sky but he is your elected
president and as such surely he is deserving of your support. Maybe he will win another term, maybe not. Who is to say that his successor will be any better or worse than he is.

You may rest assured that whoever succeeds GWB then that person also will make mistakes, will you then turn on him in much the same way

Blair is my elected Prime Minister and while I may not agree with some of his actions I have to respect them to a certain degree.

Yours is still a great nation in all senses, you have your problems of course, but then again what country doesn’t?.

You were once a God fearing nation but this has also flown out the window from what I can gather by the constant repudiation of an Almighty which I witness on this board.

So tell me, are Americans just a fiercely patriotic as they once were or have I got the wrong end of the stick
[/QUOTE]

This seems an alarmingly simplistic set of views!

Firstly the criticism is of Bush’s policies, together with reasons why.

Secondly what is your evidence that board members ‘hate the country of their birth’?
Where is the mass emigration?
You can be a patriot, ‘support the troops’ and still detest Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.

Next blind faith in elected leaders is unwise. Should people in Zimbabwe support Mugabe, just because he’s elected?
You should judge leaders on their actions, not whether their hypothetical successors will be better or worse.

Saying ‘all countries have their problems’ is silly. :rolleyes: Would you rather live in Sweden or Eritrea? Bermuda or Rwanda?

As for America not being a God-fearing nation because of a few hundred posts on a message board - good grief. :smack:

76.5% of American adults are Christian (52% Protestant; 24.5% Catholic).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel1.htm

9

[QUOTE=Starving Artist]
If he/she is a Republican, you can count on four to eight more years of non-stop president-bashing around here, though it will be less war-centric and geared more toward that particular president’s personality and/or the problems he/she may be trying to contend with. America-bashing, however, is likely to continue undiminished, as it has among the collegiate and post-collegiate crowd in this country since the late sixties.
[/QUOTE]

I’m a bit surprized at that, I would have expected a really good Republican President to get treated according to their merits.

I would also reckon that the Republicans would have to field an exceptional candidate for him/her to get elected.

10

[QUOTE=glee]

Secondly what is your evidence that board members ‘hate the country of their birth’?
[/QUOTE]
Their posts are his cite!

:smiley:

(And with that, I’m outta here. 'Night, all.)

11

Patriotism is support and love for a country. If you think the leader of your country is having a harmul effect on it then it makes sense to be unsupportive of them. I’m not sure why you think being unsupportive of Bush is unpatriotic.

12

[QUOTE=chowder]
Constant GWB bashing, criticism of your Govt. and armed forces, persons on this board who appear to hate the country of their birth…and for no apparent reason.
[/quote]
How many reasons do you want ? When people rant about Bush, they generally rant about something he’s done, or left undone. Where all all these people who hate him for no reason ? I have plenty of reasons.

[QUOTE=chowder]
I’ll admit that Bush is not the brightest star in the sky but he is your elected president and as such surely he is deserving of your support.
[/quote]
Whether he was really elected is debatable, and to the extent he actually won it was due to the stupidity of the American public and the incompetence of the Democrats, not the nonexistant virtues of the virtue-free Bush. And I owe him no support whatsoever, since I regard him as scum and my enemy; I owe him nothing but hatred, contempt and implacable opposition.

[QUOTE=chowder]
Maybe he will win another term, maybe not. Who is to say that his successor will be any better or worse than he is.
[/quote]
As said, fortunately that’s against the law. As for his successor being no better, while possible that’s unlikely; I consider him easily the worst President since the Civil War, at the least.

[QUOTE=chowder]
You may rest assured that whoever succeeds GWB then that person also will make mistakes, will you then turn on him in much the same way
[/quote]
I doubt he will make nearly as many, and I hate Bush as much for his deliberate actions and inactions as his mistakes. And of course I’d “turn on him” if the next President is as bad. Although “turn on him” implies that I was once on his side.

[QUOTE=chowder]
Blair is my elected Prime Minister and while I may not agree with some of his actions I have to respect them to a certain degree.
[/quote]
Why ?

[QUOTE=chowder]
Yours is still a great nation in all senses, you have your problems of course, but then again what country doesn’t?.
[/quote]
What is it with the way certain British grovel before America ? It’s disturbing. And self destructive; Blair’s America-toadying has not been good for Britain.

[QUOTE=chowder]
You were once a God fearing nation but this has also flown out the window from what I can gather by the constant repudiation of an Almighty which I witness on this board.
[/quote]
Gah. America is rabidly religious; it’s one of the more disgusting things about it.

[QUOTE=chowder]
So tell me, are Americans just a fiercely patriotic as they once were or have I got the wrong end of the stick
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately they are, or worse.

13

Der Trihs: I am not grovelling at all. I like the USA , nothing wrong with that is there?.

14

[QUOTE=chowder]

Constant GWB bashing, criticism of your Govt. and armed forces, persons on this board who appear to hate the country of their birth…and for no apparent reason.

I’ll admit that Bush is not the brightest star in the sky but he is your elected
president and as such surely he is deserving of your support. Maybe he will win another term, maybe not. Who is to say that his successor will be any better or worse than he is.

[/QUOTE]

To begin, I think it’s worth repeating that the SDMB is by no means even close to a representative sample of the United States. Not by a long shot.

While Bush is my President, he does not deserve my support, not one bit. I will grant the Office of the President respect, but respect and support are two very different things. I wouldn’t spit on him but I certainly wouldn’t cheer for him. Bad policies don’t get a free pass because of the office. Yet, I consider myself patriotic despite this view.

I consider it my right and my duty to speak out when my government does wrong.

I’d say what you’ve seen is the left-leaning portion of this board venting their frustration after 6 years of watching this country take a direction many do not like. And yet we still have those on the other side arguing their cause.

If I had to wager, I’d say the next President, Republican or Democrat, is going to have a rather rough ride.

As it’s after 5:30 and I’ve not been to bed yet I’ll wrap up this up. Patriotism still beats strong in America, but, and this is my contention, since 9/11, nationalism has held the upper-hand and will continue to do so for some time.

Vehement disagreement and attacks of the President, the Government, and its policies do not equal a lack of patriotism, in some cases it may the a hallmark of it.

I can love my country and bitterly disagree with its actions at the same time.

15

I’m going to chime in, as an American to the left of **Starving Artist **. Not that I’ve got anything against him/her/it.

I am an American that believes in the American Constitution and Bill of Rights (the first 10 or so amendments…they’ve been around pretty much since the Constitution was ratified, but they’re actually amendments.)

I believe in the ideas my country was founded on - freedom of speech, citizen’s militia, etc. And I think that we’ve added on some good stuff (votes for women, blacks, etc.)

One of the things I noticed when I was in London a few months ago was CC cameras everywhere. That’s ok, I guess, since I wasn’t doing anything weird, but it made me very uncomfortable - I don’t like being looked at on camera while I’m drinking my beer and leaving everyone else alone.

I think the US has got a great Constitution, and I think that many Americans believe that their Constitution stands for certain things. And I think that lately many Americans think that the behavior of the President does not fit with the letter or spirit of our Constitution as written (in the 18th century). And also, our behavior does not fit with the ideals we espoused/were assumed to have espoused in the 20th century.

(ETA: I think things got posted in the interim. They may be better than me.)

16

Yes I hold my hands up. The SDMB is more or less what I was basing my views on, rather stupid of me, I apologise.

I also should have said The Office of President rather than The Prez himself, another cock-up by moi ::smack::.

On reflection it seems that this thread was ill advised

17

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]

Gah. America is rabidly religious; it’s one of the more disgusting things about it.
[/QUOTE]

“Rabidly religious”? You really think the USA is “rabidly religious”?

Whats unfortunate about that? Is someone not a good person according to you unless they don’t like the U.S.? What if someone sees positive things about this country? Do you think it isn’t possible?

18

[QUOTE=chowder]
Yes I hold my hands up. The SDMB is more or less what I was basing my views on, rather stupid of me, I apologise.
[/quote]

No worries, it’d be difficult to find anything that would resemble a representative sample anywhere. Salad bowl of America and all that.

At least the points here are generally well-argued?

Not necessarily, depending on the question. Re-reading the OP it begins with support in reference to Bush, but switches to respect with Blair, so it wasn’t immediately clear, to me at least, which you were going for.

I’d maintain that Bush nor the Office of the President deserve my support by virtue of their station. I do however grant the Office respect and so, by association, Bush, at least a little.

That may be a little convoluted, it’s hard for me to tell at this hour, but I hope you get my meaning?

19

[QUOTE=Secret Volcano Lair]
“Rabidly religious”? You really think the USA is “rabidly religious”?
[/quote]
Oh, yes.

[QUOTE=Secret Volcano Lair]
Whats unfortunate about that? Is someone not a good person according to you unless they don’t like the U.S.? What if someone sees positive things about this country? Do you think it isn’t possible?
[/QUOTE]
Of course it’s possible; I object to all the people who believe that America has the right to stomp on the rest of the world, to all the people who deny all of America’s flaws and evils because they refuse to believe that America has any. I object to the people who regard non-Americans as expendable, and regard criticism of America’s behavior as treason. I object to all of the people who claim that America is the greatest country in the world, and then refuse to define “greatest”, or claim that it’s wealth or military make it greater than all others.

20

[QUOTE=chowder]
Der Trihs: I am not grovelling at all. I like the USA , nothing wrong with that is there?.
[/QUOTE]

Sure there is - Der Trihs hates America and all it stands for, and anyone who disagrees is clearly ignorant and misinformed. :rolleyes:

As for your OP - you’ve got some things incorrect as already posted, and some things are blown out of proportion on this message board, and this message board is not very representative of the US as a whole, but in my humble opinion as someone else already said - if you love your country (as I do) but feel your leadership is doing damage to the country you love (as I do) then it is your duty as a true Patriot to attempt to stop this damage and attempt to repair it in the country you love (as I am doing). The US has built-in measures to correct this, mainly through elections but also through extreme actions such as censure and ultimately impeachment, and as already posted Bush cannot win another term in office. I think the recent Congressional elections were a pretty strong statement by the electorate that they think the US was being led in the wrong direction, but one last thing to keep in mind - those mid-term elections are largely based on local issues, seldom on national ones.

I like to think myself rational (even though I chose to live in England :p) and think that if the next guy, be s/he Republican or Democrat, does a good job they will get my support, but I am also an independent which puts me slightly at odds with many on this board from both sides :slight_smile: