Americanize the Church? or, God help me, an American Catholicism thread

I should know better, but I just can’t let it pass. And I’m putting it in GD first, depending on what happens the Mods may take it where it fits better

In this Pit thread , there are several posts that touch on an issue that has been raised before, as to whether American Catholics should either bolt the church or force a confrontation with the central authority over the scandals affecting the institution.

Briefly and to use those who put it most succintly, first ** happyheathen**

Then Polycarp (whom I’d hire in an eyeblink as my advisor on matters of Christian scholarship):

Besides the debate among those two positions I see both debatable items and some things that just get me thinking in the whole discussion.

One, whether at the point we are in, in AD2002, anyone who is serious about following a religion and felt that the Catholic Church as we know it no longer fulfills what they want and expect in a religion, probably already left or knows where to go. And those who just go through the motions by rote for social purposes would be apathetic no matter what and could just as well join the exodus if the heat gets too great. I tend to agree with this position, having myself quite unaided by scandal slowly drifted away from active participation years ago.
For decades Rome had a beef with American Catholics over their being somewhat of “delicatessen” Catholics and over their expecting some sort of voice in the decision-making. But maybe, the truth was that in spite of wanting accommodation on such things as birth control, divorce, and celibacy they want to remain Catholic in communion with Rome, on important issues of salvation (e.g. the Sacraments, Scripture vs. Tradition, Faith vs. Works) because that iIS the doctrine that gives THEM the “best answer”

Now, that would create friction between the American cultural expectation of participation and representation and the Church’s nature as, by definition, a Top-down organization where that Top is the Top of Tops. The chain-of-command is GOD->Pope->bishops->priests->you and you’re gonna like it that way, buddy. But now the American laity is faced with a situation in which their basic moral sense demands that the institution be held accountable downward, to the rank-and-file on SOME things.

A proposal for achieving this that has been floated is a laity strike: let American lay individuals and institutions stop supporting the Church with money, work, and services. But would this be any help? This suggestion presumes that like the UN, the Vatican gets most of its funding from US sources and could not live w/o it. But what if the Vatican decided to let the striking US laity strangle their own parishes – could they thru cost-cutting run the rest-of-world Church on a shoestring, rather than give in to the Americans? I can imagine people like Cardinal Ratzinger going ahead and trying just that, with the result that those in need everywhere get short-changed.
In any case, what if there is a large confrontation between the hierarchy and the laity – there are several alternate endings:

  • Hierarchy rolls over and gives the laity what they want (yeah, right)
  • Hierarchy stands firm and either crushes the uprising or lets it ebb away by attrition (likelier though costly)
  • Hierarchy makes concessions on some of the easiest and some of the most critical issues but then insists that nothing has changed and this was what they intended all along (the usual)
  • Real reforms are put in place, but never enough to please the anti-Catholics so who cares about them (best case, rare)

The most radical possible consequence is schism, creating the USCC. But the vast majority of serious American Catholics are not interested in renouncing communion with the Pope. Besides, as some sort of representative democracy and Americans being the way we are, once you remove the non-accountable unifying element that is immune to public opinion polls it could quickly fragment into a myriad of single-issue-based, regional-based, ideological or personality-based submagisteria. Or would it have to?(And more practically, who the heck gets the real estate?)

Yet another possible (but as yet unmentioned) alternative is that as a result of the American Catholic laity having some irrenounceable demands, by the middle of this century a compromise is reached with an American Rite Catholic Church “Uniate” with Rome. It is in communion with the Pope and has all the traits of the Roman Catholic Church on what’s important to salvation, gets some of its bishops named as Cardinal, and its clergy and missionaries are interchangeable with those of the Mother Church when deployed overseas, but it has married priests, a tolerance for some forms of contraception, an acceptance of gays who live a life of holiness, transparent finances. A series of representative, accountable bodies at the diocesan, ecclesiastical province, and national levels set personnel, fiscal, and non-theological discipline policies, standards of administrative efficiency, etc. The authority for appointment of Bishops would still proceed from Rome but these bodies would have voice and vote at least on who would be on the short list and on impeaching a Bishop if he misbehaves. Rome and the American Catholics would greatly resist such an outcome, even if theologically sound, as it would look like admitting defeat (for both sides), could encourage repeat performances, and (from the Laity’s POV) would mean the reforms were “contained” within North America. Wouldthey be justified to feel that way? I believe so, if their intention was to reform the whole CC.

The likelier outcome, like I said, is that there will be years of conferences, conventions, synods, etc. AND that IF there is some large politico-theological upheaval elsewhere in the Church – in the growth areas of Latin America and Africa, or in the key intellectual circles in Europe – the Americans will be told to get in line and their grievances addressed like just one more among the whole world. In the end heads do roll, and some time in the reign of the next Pope there will be a medium-scale shakeup, a lot of minor and maybe one or two major concessions, probably a big public official Act of Contrition, and after that some hunkering down until the next upheaval.

jrd

While I would support an American Rite of the Catholic Church, anything beyond that is, in fact, a schism that would mean that American Catholics are not really Catholic anymore.

Of course, one would have to wonder, what would be the difference between your proposed American Rite and the ECUSA, aside from female priests…

Kirk

It’s an interesting topic. A topic that does get talked about even a fair number of clergy in this country. There is an undercurrent of democracy, pluralism and connection to other faiths among U.S. Catholics that doesn’t exist in the same fashion in most European (or Latin American) Catholic parishes.

I remember Joseph Cardinal Bernadin (surely one of the good guys we had here in the states) asking some tough questions about this kind of thing a few years back. I looked it up, and found the website for the Catholic Common Ground Initiative. Specifically, Bernadin’s statement in 1996, Called To Be Catholic: Church In A Time Of Peril. His words were true then…and sound spooky now…

and

I dunno. I think the catholic (small C) nature of our religion is a crucial element to the identity of Catholicism. Perhaps even more than our Protestant brethern, we have a tradition of reaching across space and time (the Communion of Saints) to define us as a church. I don’t really see an American Rite arising (at least any time soon) to deal with the issues raised by Bernadin and others. Maybe we’ll get an American Pope? …followed quickly by the Bears winning the Super Bowl … :stuck_out_tongue:

An American pope would be far too hegemonic. Same reason we’ll never see an American Secretary General.

Kirk

Is there any sense of urgency in Catholic circles on this topic?

Any sense of “can’t continue like this”?

I have lived across the street from a very large RCC church for over 20 years. (no, that is NOT redundant)

This complex covers an entire city block - church, rectory, large elementary school, and 4-5 sfd’s.

The attendance at both the church and school is WAY off, and there seems to be more funerals than weddings.

During the mini-baby-boom of the mid-80’s, ths baptismal font was visible just inside the main entrance. I haven’t seen it in a decade or more.

I’m not going to get into theology or doctrine, but:

exactly how important IS the connection to Rome?

p.s. - of the little I saw, the attendance for EASTER was pathetic - exactly TWO little girls all dressed up (both under age 7). NO older children, very few adults.

I suggested that an American Catholic Church was coming – I’ve noted it on this Board, in fact. As I said fairly recently, I think it will be a quiet movement rather than an open and obvious schism. But I thnk it will happen. Despite the corn heaped on “cafeteria Catholics”, people are becoming fed up, think, with the perceived problems of pedophile priests and other issues, and groups are now forming tha advocate married priests an female priests.

Nbody’s going to nail theses to a cathedral oor. The split will be a soft, nontraumatic one, and people will not consider themselves to have left anything. But it will be a definite change.

How could you have forgotten about Liberation Theology? The Latin Americans were way ahead of norteamericanos in this, implementing radical democracy at the parish level years ago (when the closest most gringo Catholics got was some guitar Masses and the occasional grape boycott). The Berrigans were an aberration in the United States. Imagine many parishes all over Latin America with the equivalent of the Berrigans, that will give you some idea.

I guess the system eventually quashed most of the Liberation Catholics. Whatever became of them? The Witness for Peace program when Reagan was attacking Nicaragua, remember that? One notable Liberation Theology project that managed to draw in gringo Catholics.

Wasn’t it a parish priest who set off the Mexican independence struggle way back in 1810?

After reading not only that thread but thread it linked to and the thread it linked to and the thread it linked to, I’m back to respond. How would separating from the RCC solve anything? It seems to me that Americans are as guilty, if not more so, as the central organization.

Yes-Father Hidalgo.

There is actually an American Catholic Church, though it’s not in communion with Rome. It’s apparently not a huge movement, as websites were thin on the ground at Yahoo! for it.

jayjay

Some of them made the tactical mistake of aligning themselves with political “liberation” movements that were in turn aligned with Marxism (e.g. the Sandinistas).

This already had upset Paul VI but the Holy Water really hit the fan with Karel Wojtyla, aka JP2, who was busy undermining communism in his native Poland and was concerned about having to fight on two fronts. Symbolic of this was when, during this pope’s first visit to Nicaragua, he openly gave Father Cardenal (Education Minister) a finger-wagging scolding at the airport receiving line, and later at the public Mass the organizers put the altar in front of a giant Revolutionary mural featuring Sandino and Ortega, and competing slogan-chanting crowds interrupted the sermon. He was NOT amused and at one point even yelled back (“Quiet!”) .

“Liberation” clerics found themselves at career dead ends; transferred away from their home turfs (and transferred again if it looked like they were getting a following in their new billet; rinse, repeat); shoved into universities or “kicked upstairs” to non-decision-making middle-bureaucracy posts away from direct pastoral work. They have continued to publish, but w/o the parish pulpit or the purple, that is not as effective. Seminaries were directed to renew emphasis and rigor on doctrinal formation in order to remain accredited. Active priests were “strongly advised” to forsake political office.

Liberation theology DOES influence the Catholic mainstream – the new Catechism, for instance, has more emphasis the sinfulness of such things as worker exploitation, economic injustice and political opression, and on the importance of participation of the laity (…as long as they follow Church discipline). Someone with a (US)American political perspective would consider many of the modern RCC’s worldwide policy positions (except on gender/reproductive issues) quite “Liberal” – on labor, environmental, anti-death-penalty, ethnic-group rights, redistribution of wealth issues. Both at the laity and hierarchy level, many ARE, still, at heart “Liberation” Catholics, only they’re not political about it.

HH, may I ask why you have your local RCC on full surveillance, or is that information on a need-to-know basis?

Since my crystal ball isn’t working, I’ll take a shot a complete supposition…

I don’t think an American Rite of the Catholic Church will develop because that is far too structured a response to the dwindling numbers of active parishioners (i.e. weekly attendance as Sunday mass, reception of confession once a year, reception of Holy Communtion during the Easter season, etc.). I think result is merely a smaller and smaller group of active parishioners in the US.

But one observation I always return to is that average Americans (I include myself) live in an almost hyper-reality (the ability to engage in instant communication coupled with instant gratification). The Church is one of the the oldest organizations in the history of humanity (barring the Illuminati); the bishops can and probably do take a slightly different perspective on time.

The problem was, the Bishop of Managua, Obando y Bravo, was very much against the Sandinistas-much as he was against the Somoza regime. However, when he saw the liberation theologians, he referred to them snidely as the “popular church” insinuating they were starting a whole new schism.

The liberation theologians don’t think of it thus-they believe that their faith demands that they act this way.

I don’t know if he was part of the movement, but I would point to Archbishop Romero as having a huge influence on many progressive Catholics in Latin America.

-Guinastasia, liberation Catholic.

Munch - I don’t spy, but occasionally I look (and sometimes go!) outside. As I said, across the street is a church. If, right now, I were to turn my head, I would see it.

Sorry if this makes you feel threatened…

In addition to the Witness for Peace program I already mentioned (I learned of it in 1984 from a Chicana theology student I dated who went to a Nicaraguan village and participated in it), there was something else going on at the same time: the Sanctuary movement, a sort of Underground Railroad to shelter Latin American refugees who were barred from legally entering El Norte. These were two instances where Latin American liberation theology had a chance to intersect with Catholics in los Estados Unidos.