If you’re referring to “Exclusion of employer contributions for medical insurance premiums,” why would the middle class lose the benefits of that under a national health care system? That is, how would they be paying any more out of pocket (taxes included) for health care than they do now?
And wouldn’t the middle class have a vested interest in preventing that? Which universal health care would.
BG: Because that subsidy would be distributed among the entire working age population, rather than just those fortunate enough to have an employer who contributes money into their premium.
As for the other part of your question, no one thinks that far ahead. All anyone ever does, or 90% of people anyway, is to figure how much it will cost them out-of-pocket. If that amount is anywhere north of zero, they will oppose it vehemently. Nothing surprises me more, every time, than
a) how money-grubbing and cheap most people are, and
b) how short-sighted they are in relation to a.
By now, I’ve learned that the best thing to do is simply to take advantage of this lethal combination, and forget about ever trying to convince anyone to see beyond their toes. Keeps me sane.
40%? :dubious: Cite?
-XT
It won’t happen before 2008. I also can’t see a republican going for it unless there’s still a democratic majority.
The most likely option is going to be one that will probably be a hodge-podge system that uses stop-gap methods to prevent the uninsured from being uncovered. I expect it will most likely be more expensive than our current methods. I’m sure it will be cut somehow later down the line. Be certain that some conservative group will publish some sort of ridiculous story about a single person abusing the system and make it into a huge story.
The sad thing is that, like many things in this country, we probably have some of the best health-care options of any nation, but only those who are above a significant income level can afford it. We spend a higher portion of our GDP on healthcare than any country, and if the data above is true, we have the highest amount of uninsured. Thus our healthy life expectancy (From the WTO) is 69 years. Who beats us?
Granted that there are loads of other factors in this that are involved, but we are easily getting a very bad value for our money. That’s the primary fact that we must face!
I’m not saying that single-payer is the answer, but there are loads of examples where it does. A lot of conservatives might add that one of the problems our healthcare system is the litigious nature of it. This could be the case, obviously, but I’m not sure. The point is that we aren’t getting our value for our money. We need to study other nations that get a very high value for their money. That’s all that matters to me. I don’t care if I’m paying the taxman, or the insurance company, or that my wages are affected by the fact that I’ve got coverage from my employer. You obviously have to pay some way, but we have to focus on getting better value for our money and making sure everyone is covered.
It so happens that most single-payer systems seem to get a good value for the money, but the problem is that we can’t do it half-assed.
Unfortunately doing things half-assed is what we are all about these days, so I won’t keep my hopes up.
Then you haven’t been listening.
Most claim that care would stay the same. Rationing is not in the cards for most Americans.
And the “most Americans have decent health insurance” statement … it may be true that GomezK overestimates the number of uninsured Americans. But the accurate numbers are still significant. 15 to 16% uninsured. Big increases in noncoverage rates among working and young adults. Employer provided coverage down to under 60%. Fact is that most either are uninsured, have been uninsured, have family or freinds that are uninsured, or are high enough in the coorporate structure that they see how their company’s provision of an insurance benefit is hurting their company.
Pantom, eliminating the payroll subsidization of healthcare expenses (and shifting to individual coverage with after tax dollars balanced by sliding scale tax credits) should be near budget neutral to most, and a hit mainly on those who are in the highest income brackets. By definition the payroll subsidy approach subsidizes those at higher income levels the most.
Without question it is possible to provide the same or better level of care and provide a basic package of care to all while saving money over the long term. It requires actualizing savings from what the uninsured actually end up costing us all and from our huge administrative inefficiencies. Can we politically do it is another question. Maybe. We are approaching what is required: enough people being effected within their own circle of family and freinds; busines leaders seeing how the current system adversely effects them and being sold on the idea that reform is of benefit to their competitiveness; and last but not least, political leadership making it a major issue in an effective way (not, for example, in the clumsy arrogant way of HRC back in the day.)
Well, that’s typical. If you were a REAL American, you’d have shot yourself, so you could die quickly and inexpensively, and American conservatives and libertarians wouldn’t be embarrassed that they are exporting their medical issues. Then again, they probably just feel smug that some more socialist government is taking it on the chin economically for caring about people.
Great cuz if I recall, those tactics didn’t work particularly well. The only tort reform we got was the class action tort reform and that was such an obvious peice of legislation that you wonder why it required so much lobbying to pass.
I talk to a lot of people around town (liberal democrats among them) who were around in the early 90’s and they all pretty much agree that universal healthcare didn’t collapse under its own weight. It collapsed under the weight of Hillary’s conceit and hubris.
That was definitely a large part of it. I started to detest her from that point on.
But, it’s also the case that once you start to get into the details, the majority of the middle class will have to give something up for this to work, and that simply will never happen.
Perhaps 40% is high, but nonetheless, I had no choice but to change my life completely and move abroad. For the first couple years I had to move to a new country every 90 days or 6 months while I tried to gain leagal residency somewhere. Now I have legal residency overseas but can’t return to the US. I makes no sense. I have an income over $75K and have had no medical claims since I left… but at least I am insured. I can visit any country except the US and still have $10 million in coverage.
The US absolutely needs to allow ordinary Americans to buy into the same system that government employees have. I am willing to pay a reasonable amount… my current cost of $180/mo for the two of us is no issue at all.
Too bad the “greatest country in the world” isn’t.
You’d think so, wouldn’t you? And you’d be wrong. See, there are a few little quirks that I didn’t mention:
The government pays a flat rate for everyone.
The government mandates a certain minimum level of care (treatments, medicines etc.), that the insurer must supply in return for their money. This minimum is good, if not great, but insurers are welcome to add to the basic package. They’re also allowed to offer premium policies, where members can pay extra - from their own pockets - in return for an improved level of care.
The insurers have to accept everyone.
Um…quite. Thats why I asked you for a cite. IIRC, the actually percentage is something like 10-15%. Feel free to look it up to see if its closer to your own assertion.
Ordinary American’s can buy any kind of insurance they want. I would have no problem allowing them to buy the same insurance Federal Employee’s buy…I’m just unsure why this would help. Or what it has to do with Universal Health Care.
:rolleyes:
-XT
That’s my point… ordinary American’s CAN’T always buy it. I am an ordinary American, but due to a genectic condition, I am unable to buy health insurance. My medical bills for my entire life related to this condition are $0. Nonetheless, I can’t get insuracen and have been declined 4 times and told “don’t bother” many more times.
The issue is that insurance companies can decline people for any or no reason. Thus, I had to leave my country to get insured and this is a problem.
Our health care and the supporting system is extremely expensive. Universal health care would require cutting costs . Doctors, insurance companies, pharmacy industries benefit from the present system. They are rich and politically powerful. Nothing will happen.
Pretty hypocritical of politicians to be against universal health care when they all have free health care for life.
Um…you realize that politicians are in favor of what is going to get them re-elected, right? If the majority of Americans favored (and were willing to pay for) Universal Health Care, we’d have it.
-XT
One would think. Somehow, it doesn’t always work out that way. “A republic, not a democracy,” and so on.
Could be. Could be even simplier though. Might just be that the majority of American’s simply don’t want UHI…or more specifically they don’t want to pay for it.
-XT
Someone already posted that we all want free, perfect health care. I am sure that if asked folks would want their current health care plan to be paid for by the government.
BUT, would they settle for the Oregon Plan, where certain procedures are not covered?
Would they take the VA system?
Would they take the Kaiser model out here in CA?
UHC means nothing until we get to specifics of the delivery model, deductibles, rights, and finally payment.
So, you’re not an ordinary American by your own admission. You keep bringing yourself up, but as far as anecdotal evidence goes, that’s a small, small sampling. In fact, it’s insignificant (I’m not saying you’re insignificant; you seem like a nice person).
Whenever I leave the USA, I’m uninsured wherever I’m at. Well, yeah, I may be reimbursed at some point for part of it, but for the sake of whoever’s providing treatment, I’m uninsured. Why the heck can’t you just visit the States just like anyone else in the world who visits not having coverage?