Wiwaxia, so what you’re saying is part of the problem is the belief that Americans are not as well-educated as alot of other people? Actually I’d heard that before and it completely slipped my mind. Shoulda included that in the OP.
While this may be true with some countries, what about other countries that have this opinion of us, that have even worse education systems? I mean thinking Americans are ignorant that is.
As for if this viewpoint is unjustfied: yeah it is, it’s stereotyping and that’s always wrong. As for what to do about it: I think we’re just screwed. Not all Germans are efficient and not all French are Snobs (U.S. perception on the second one) but they’ve been dealing with those stereotypes for years and I doubt that things are gonna change soon.
Okay, I don’t know what part of Canada you’ve been living in, but 99% of the people I have ever met in Canada have known a great deal about the US.
I spent a great deal of my childhood in the Canadian prairies, in Saskatoon, which most Americans have never heard of, despite its population of nearly a quarter million people. One would be hard pressed to find an American city of that size that people the world over had not heard of.
Having said that, I found upon fleeing to the West Coast that even the rest of Canada does not feel it necessary to know anything about the prairies. At a party I even heard that another person was “morally opposed to life in Saskatchewan”. Had she ever been there? - No.
I think the offensive idea is that, having decided a place is small and the actions of its people are immaterial, it is okay to ignore that place or even mock it. I am not demannding that every American (or Canadian) rush out to the library and read up on every country in the world, but a passing knowledge and a tolerance or even interest in local custom would be nice.
The Canadians and Americans share a continent, and no American I’ve ever come across could answer these questions:
Who is the Prime-Minister of Canada?
What are the major political parties of Canada?
How many provices are there in Canada? Territories? Now name them.
Who is on the $5 bill?
Who was the first Prime-Minister of Canada?
What is the capitol of Canada?
What are the 4 major urban centers of Canada?
Etc, etc, etc…
But I think almost all Canadain could answer the same questions about America. Yet Americans still have this attitude that we just don’t matter. If they were just upfront about their ignorance I think it would be different. So I guess it’s the arrogance factor that really gets me.
It helps to think of the US as more of a continent than a country, given the sheer extent of its geography as well as its population. It’s as reasonable to expect an American to know as much about some state-sized country in Europe as someone there to know about particular states. Your average potato farmer in Idaho shouldn’t be expected to know more about Ireland than your average Irish potato farmer should be expected to know about Idaho.
Consider that the US also uses the international language of convention as its own working language (not coincidentally, but that’s just reality) and knowledge of it is automatically more accessible to others who know the international language. That is also why it matters less for Americans (or Brits, Canucks, or Aussies) to know a second language themselves - if they do, it’s usually of marginal benefit, unlike English is to a continental European.
Add to that the simple fact that the bulk of the world’s entertainment industry is in the US, and that the rest of the world experiences more American-made TV shows and movies and songs than vice versa, and that can lead to the impression that the rest of the world knows the US as a country better, too. But the misimpressions that result from that can be horrendous.
I see little to object to in observing that most people know their own geographic areas better than others. That criticism is easily reversed and irrelevant.
But I think we can agree that the problem isn’t truly lack of knowledge, on anyone’s part. That’s easily fixed. The problem is lack of curiosity about the world, other people, and other viewpoints. No amount of force-feeding in school can fix that, nor can any amount of lamentations by those who are not willfully ignorant.
Btw, meyer, your Question #2 is a trick. There is only 1 major political party in Canada at present. There are a few semi-organized, ineffective whining clubs too, but they’re currently irrelevant. See, some of us Yanks do know. I know your other questions, too.
Slight nitpick: I’m Canadian, and I’m not sure how to answer this one. Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver…exactly which city do you consider the fourth? Ottawa? Halifax? Calgary?
It’s like asking, “What are the three major urban centers of the U.S.A.?” New York, Los Angeles, and…Boston? Philadelphia? San Francisco? Chicago?
Compare how many times Bush has been in the news compared to Chretien. How many times Washington, DC is in the news compared to Ottawa. How many times NYC, LA, Chicago or whatever is in the news or in the media in general compared with Toronto, Montreal, etc. Keep going.
Just because Canadians might know a bit about the US doesn’t mean they came across that info by actively studying or becaue they actually care. It just means they have been exposed to it over and over again that they can’t help BUT know about it.
Here’s a quiz for you meyer
Who is the president of Mexico?
What are the major political parties of Mexcio?
How many states are there in Mexico? Territories? Now name them.
Who is on the peso? Doesn’t matter the denomination, just name someone on any of the bills and which one he/she is on.
Who was the first president of Mexico?
What is the capital of Mexcio?
What are the 4 major urban centers of Mexico?
Mexico and Canada are on the same continent, so Canadians should be able to answer those.
Not so easy knowing a lot about another country when it isn’t in the news 24/7.
All this proves is that Canada is less important than the United States. This should come as no surprise. And I don’t see why Americans–or in fact anyone not involved in Canadian currency transactions–would care who is on the Canadian $5 bill. There’s not much demand for Canadian currency in the United States, but (from what I’ve heard), there is quite a demand for American currency in Canada. Is that our fault? I think not.
Sorry, but our dick is bigger. You’ll just have to cope with that.
250,000 is a lot of people? Ever heard of Plano, Texas? Historically it is of little importance but it is a suburb of Dallas. Most people I’ve run into haven’t heard of it and don’t know that JC Penny, Frito-Lay, and a few other companies have their corporate HQ located in Plano. Plano’s population as of 200 is about 222,000 people. I don’t think anyone in Plano gives a second thought to people never having heard of them.
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I’ve heard people bitching about humans living in Arizona. Takes all kinds I guess.
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Well I hate to say it buy why the heck should I care about Saskatoon? Most Americans know all they need to know about Canada. They border us to the north and every once in a while we find some of their change with ours. Livign in the southern area of the United States I can honestly say I hardly ever gave Canada more then two thoughts. I know more about England, Germany, China, and the former USSR then I do about Canada.
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We’re hardly equal partners. And I don’t say that meaning “Nanny nanny boo boo we’re better then you.” We have a population of over 230,000,000, we have more money then you, and we’re better at projecting ourselves around the globe.
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Well let’s face it, you don’t matter as much as we do.
Why do you care so much about what Americans think? As I said earlier I’m hardly an expert on Canada. But everything I know about it points to it being a great place to live.
Hey, I’m American and I’ve heard of Saskatoon! I’ve been there too! Heck, I even got involved with a Canadian (which resulted in much heartbreak, and thus spawned my undying hatred of all things Canuck - just kidding).
As for Americans being ignorant - I have a story (which I believe I’ve shared in the past in one or another threads). My wife is British and, during the four years in which we lived in Alabama, she was asked four times by (apparently) educated people, “Where did you learn to speak English?”
They weren’t joking. They were deadly serious. How do we know? Because they didn’t understand why we were laughing when they asked the question - suddenly she and I shared that look that said “Oh, they’re serious!” I shouldn’t call it ignorance, because I’m pretty sure that even when I went to school in Alabama, we covered England pretty well in world history. So perhaps it’s just raw stupidity.
As an aside, a guy in one shop asked her if her accent was German. Yeah, that’s something to say to a Brit.
There are 64 cities in the United States with a population of 250,000 people or more (according to the 1992 US Census population estimate). Can you name any interesting facts about Santa Ana, California (population 288,024) or Mesa, Arizona (population 296,645)? Which is larger, Kansas City, Kansas, or Kansas City, Missouri?
Odd fact: 9.5% of American households with an income under $12,500 per year own a horse.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
This thread started out with some interesting observations and some genuine attempts to discuss the issue sensibly. It’s this sort juvenile defensiveness that contributes to the (generally unjustified) image of Americans as ignorant.
It seems to me that if you think that this is all that Americans need to know about Canada, then you’re not making a very good argument for American erudition. Never heard of NAFTA? Think it has no relevance to the US?
If you think that living in the south means that Canada has little effect on you, think again. Just one example: the US earlier this year imposed a tariff on Candian softwood lumber in response to what it said were unfair Canadian government subsidies to the timber industry north of the border. As this article points out, many US corporations, employees, and homebuyers will be affected by this decision, including lumber companies in Georgia and other parts of the south.
I’m not interested in arguing the merits or the legality of these tariffs; i only want to point out that this issue and many others like it indicate the importance, for some Americans at least, of what happens in Canada. And i haven’t even mentioned the myriad other economic, political, social and cultural ties between the two countries.
I’m not saying you need to take any particular interest in Saskatoon, or in Canada as a whole for that matter. It’s totally up to you what you choose to focus on. But the fact that you don’t take a personal interest does not mean that Canada’s only relevance to the US is a shared border and some stray quarters in your laundry money.
There has also been a tendency among some on this thread to equate America’s global dominance with some sort of innate superiority. I don’t think anyone has made this claim outright, but some of the more defensive posts have started to slide into a language of natural superiority. I conceded in my earlier post:
But we shouldn’t extend this global importance and visibility to an argument that implies that America and its people are more important in some absolute sense than the other peoples of the world. Economic and political power notwithstanding, the United States still has somewhere around 6 percent of the world’s population, which leaves plenty of other people. Just because some of these people inhabit small and/or relatively powerless nations doesn’t make them less important as people. Historians have fought over the past quarter-century or so to dispel the notion that history is only what is done by rich and powerful people. I think we would do well to remember this.
Actually if you look back at my OP I did make a comment that Americans know less about other countries than we should. But, as was pointed out (by several people, in a blunt kind of way) it seems that you know more about the U.S. because our country can have such a huge impact upon yours, but the opposite is not quite so true. For what it’s worth however, I do think that Americans should know more about Canada and Mexico specifically. You’re our neighbors for crying out loud.
[sub]plus when we get another expansionist itch and decide to conquer you guys it’d probably be a good idea to know your customs in advance[/sub]
I finally found the 2000 census figures for this. As of 2000, there are 68 cities with a population of 250,000 or more. There are nine with more than one million.
In comparison, there are 16 metropolitan areas in Canada with 250,000 or more (not including Saskatoon, which comes in just under 250,000), and only 4 with more than one million (Toronto, Montréal, Vancouver, and Ottawa).
Note also that the American statistics are for incorporated areas, not for metropolitan areas. If we look at metropolitan areas, we find 147 with more than 250,000, 50 with more than 1 million, and ten larger than Toronto (Canada’s largest). There are 156 metro areas the size of Saskatoon in the United States, including such well-known places as Utica, New York; Macon, Georgia; Fort Pierce, Florida; and Columbus, Georgia. What can you, o wise and enlightened Canadian, tell me about Utica, Macon, Fort Pierce, or Columbus?
I challenge your assertion that anybody could name something interesting about any randomly chosen US metro area in excess of 250,000 people. Even most Americans have probably never heard of Mayaguez, Puerto Rico (253,347, rank 142).
You’ll have to excuse me while i stifle a yawn. I realize that a couple of the Canadians on this thread might have brought this mind-numbing detail upon themselves by insisting that Americans know something about Saskatoon or Kamloops or Schefferville or wherever. But this whole “i know more about your small cities than you know about mine” routine doesn’t exactly get us very far.
I didn’t know, until i just looked it up on the Indian census website, that India has 27 cities over 1 million, including six between 2 and 3 million, two between 3 and 4 million, three between 4 and 5 million, and two over 9 million. And all this in a country whose population is only 27.78% urban.
But so what? Not knowing this information offhand doesn’t make me ignorant. I could still tell you something about Mahatma Ghandi’s pacifism, the post-WWII independence of Pakistan, the current battle over Kashmir, and the state of the Indian national cricket team. But knowing this stuff doesn’t make me especially smart either - i just happen to be interested in it.
If we start trying to determine the level of someone’s knowledge by asking how much they know about cities with a population of a quarter-million people or more, we will likely be contributing to ignorance rather than combatting it. There are very few people in any country who couldn’t benfit from knowing more about what’s going on in the world.
I’d add one last suggestion. Many Americans have, like me, pointed out the relative importance of the US in world affairs. Well, given that this is the case, and that the US defines itself as a democracy of, by and for the people, maybe it is more incumbent on Americans to know what’s going on elsewhere so they can make informed decisions when selecting the leaders who will have such an impact on the world stage?
Mayhaps, but I’d rather have a president who understood my interests than the interests of someone from another country. Now granted, it’s important to know other people’s cultures (and fun, too) but that’s why the president has advisors.
On the other hand, if the pres doesn’t understand what the people in the US want then its going to be awfully hard to set a proper agenda/goals.
As if I need to be an expert on either Canada or Mexico to decide whether NAFTA is good or not.
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I know it has an affect on me economically. There was at least one large Canadian based company in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area that had many buildings and American employees. That doesn’t mean I need to know Canada’s largest city, who their prime minister is, or who is on their 5 dollar bill.
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I understand that there are important relationships between the United States and Canada. I’d never argue otherwise. But I will argue that there’s a lot of information about Canada that juts isn’t important to most Americans. I can make the same arguement for Mexico.
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Well I was only joking about the stray change thing. I realize that Canada is important and I actually like being on good terms with our northern neighbors.
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Well to the people of the United States we probably are the most important. We tend to put our concerns above those of other nations.
No, it doesn’t. I think that was the point, sorta.
Yes, I, as an American, are not very cognizant of various statistical trivia about Canada, or in fact most other nations. For that matter, I’m not that familiar with such trivia about the United States, either. But I don’t think this is all that American a phenomenon.
I don’t have memorized the Canadian provinces or their capitals. But I do know, amongst other things, that the national capital is in Ottawa, Jacques Chretien is the current PM (even if I can’t spell his name), the Canadian parliament is bicameral in apperance and unicameral in fact (the Senate being strictly a collection of powerless figureheads), and Canada forbids the importation of gay porn from the United States for no good reason.
As to my earlier flippant “bigger dick” comment: a lot of the time, the “ignorant 'merkins” rants that we often have to put up with from citizens of other nations often come across as a way for those people to regain superiority: “We’re not as big or as powerful as those damn Americans, but at least we’re smarter! Take that, you cultural imperialist swine.” Maybe that’s not what it is, but it sure as hell seems like it.
As I noted above mhendo may have a point about Americans knowing more about foreign countries. There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing with him, but state your opposing argument rationally.
Also (being the peon who started this thread), I don’t want this to turn into a Canadian/American pissing match. I don’t think that anyone’s done anything bad so far, but I really want info from people of other nations as well (everybody is of course welcome to post though).
Also mhendo you state that most of the people you know, know more about the U.S. than Americans know about Canada. I’m sorry but that’s anecdotal, so I’m gonna have to ask for a cite, otherwise that argument doesn’t hold much weight. You might know more about us than vice-versa, but that doesn’t generalize to the majority of Americans or Canadians.
You may have something with your argument about Americans needing to be aware of the ramifications of U.S. policy. I have to ask if most Canadians (or any nationals anywhere) are aware of the consequences of all of their government’s actions upon foreign countries. I think that people should be aware, but often are not because it doesn’t directly affect them.
Maybe I shoulda made the Post Subject Americans are ignorant, but who ain’t?
Well, with regard to the first paragraph, i actually referred to Australia, not Canada. And what i said was: “it has been my experience that Australians generally know more about the US than vice versa”. Why does that need a citation? The words “my experience” make it clear that i was only presenting this as anecdotal evidence, not as a wholly applicable truth.
Unless someone has done a comparative poll with similar questions about each country, given to a similar sample group in each country, you’re probably not going to get any definitive answers here. Looking back over the thread, it seems to me that, regarding the relative ignorance or otherwise of Americans, anecdotal evidence is about all that has been offered by anyone (except regarding the populations of various cities )
On the second paragraph, you are certainly correct that people in other countries are probably not well-informed enough about their respective countries’ activities on the international scene. But it has been my argument all along that everyone could do with knowing more, as when i said “There are very few people in any country who couldn’t benfit from knowing more about what’s going on in the world.”
It strikes me that if this thread is looking to investigate whther or not Americans are particularly ignorant, the answer always has to be “no”, because it is so hard to arrive at any real conclusions about a country so large and diverse. About the only real evidence i have attempted to offer was in my first post, where i cited the book by Wallis and Baran that showed less attention to international news by the American media compared to its European counterparts. But i followed this citaton with the caveat:
Note the “if” at the beginning of the last sentence. Again, from a personal perspective, the best-informed Americans i know are those that go beyond ABC/CBS/NBC and get their news from a wider variety of American and international sources. I’d be willing to bet that the situation is similar in Canada, Australia, etc. etc.
[Forgive me if I am restating something that has been said before in this thread, but I was admittedly a bit to lazy to wade through all of it just to check…]
I think one of the things that I (as an American/Canadian dual citizen, but who has mainly lived in the U.S.) find annoying about the American mentality is a tendency to say that “America is the best country on earth” which in practice often means:
(1) I know nothing about other countries but I am going to make this claim anyway.
(2) I am unwilling to look at the way in which other countries do things, even in areas in which there are clearly deficiencies in my own country.
This, IMHO, is not a healthy attitude and it is one that seems to me to be less prevalent (although by no means absent) in other [mainly Western] countries that I have visited or interacted with citizens of.
