Actually, most european countries are trying to intergrate their immigrant population - they’re just doing very well.
I usually find that people are people where ever you go. If you are courteous and respectful most of the time you will get courtesy and respect in return. I just returned from France and found almost all of the people there to be nice - with the one exception of a waiter who muttered in French “It is OK, he is not from around here, he does not know any better” because I did not want dessert.
The rest there enjoyed telling me about their country, their politics and their interests (I was there on business for the Tour De France so I heard *way *too much about bike racing!)
It was a similar experience to when I did business in Japan and the UK. (Of course the UK was easier because we shared a similar language.)
Uh, I’m sorry but could those of you who say Europe discourages assimilation through our policies point out how, or specific examples of policies that do this? Are you talking about things like the situation of several-generation turkish immigrants in Germany? Because that’s kind of an exception to the general rule, AFAIK…
Caveat: I haven’t been to Europe. My opinions are based on long conversations with every European I’ve ever met (about twenty or so), and even longer conversations with every American I’ve ever met who’s been there, including members of my family. I also read European media whenever I can. My impressions from afar:
Europeans seem to forget they invented Imperialism, not the United States. They engage in a lot of moralizing about what the U.S. government should do, without noticing their own governments rarely do anything that differently when given half a chance. As a previous poster noted, Europeans were responsible for starting both World Wars, which had to be resolved through outsides forces, i.e., us. Yet they still have an air of superiority about their culture versus ours in many places.
Historically, subtle arrogance in individual nations about their culture (especially in Britain and France) goes back basically forever; it was certainly around at the time of our Revolutionary War. I think nowadays Europeans like to engage in this partly as a form of sour grapes. No one says this out loud, but it’s pretty clear the EU was formed partly to keep the individual nations of Europe from sliding into irrelevance on a global scale.
As far as racism goes, many Europeans seem to confuse American oppenness about our problems with a moral failing. Because our battles on this issue were fought in public, they assume this means we have especially severe problems. Their own problems are just as severe, but they never want to talk about or deal with what is right under their noses. Denial is the watchword. (A friend of mine who went to Romania on a missions trip had to endure lectures about “American racism” only to see whole groups of people get up and leave public places when Roma (gypsies) showed up. When he pointed out this paradox, he was told it was a different situation because “all Roma are liars and thieves”!)
The American national government let our Civil Rights movement take root as an expression of independent thinking; I doubt any European government would allow itself to be so challenged. In fact, women received the right to vote in the United States before they did in most European countries outside Scandianvia.
Americans who comment about European “openness” have probably never tried to request government documents, been stopped by the police, been hauled into court, had a legal dispute with the government or a big company, or openly espoused extreme political views in a European country. They don’t have a First Amendment anywhere in Europe; in fact, they don’t even have a Bill of Rights. You don’t see the difference this makes until it affects YOU, and it problably won’t if you just visit Europe on vacation. Americans who chafe at our own cultural othodoxy don’t get how much more rigidly it is enforced, and by the governments, in Europe.
What worries me is that I see our government here becoming more like those in Europe, especially in response to terrorism, and sometimes using terrorism as an excuse.
Actually, I would say that probably the primary concern of the nutcase nationalist bigot types over here isn’t all that based on skin colour. Not that there’s no racism towards non-whites (sadly, much to the contrary, especially recently) but it tends to be people from Eastern European countries that are the bone of contention for the “they’re coming over here, taking our jobs, bloody criminals!” types.
I’d also say that racism in the UK is a lesser problem than in the US… but then I live in London, and I imagine someone from Cornwall would have a very different view.
Maybe “more” is correct, but your explanation doesn’t support that. The Muslim communities in Europe and the US are very different. In the US, Muslim immigrants have been mainly educated, white collar workers seeking to integrate themselves into their adopted country. In Europe, Muslim immigrants have been largely working class folks who kept strong ties to their native countries. A better comparison might be to look at Muslims in Europe compared to Mexican immigrants to the US (many of whom, in both communities, either immigrated illegally or were part of some sort of guest worker program).
On a serious note, I absolutely love visiting Europe. I’ve been there many times, and have traveled extensively around the countryside as well as in the cities. I wish I had had the opportunity to live there for awhile. The thing that worries me is that I don’t see the same level of innovation and “hustle” (for lack of a better word) that you see in the US or in many Asian countries. Not that “hustle” is objectively good or anything, but it’s hard to compete when most of the world is hustling and you’re not.
As the son of a European (German), I was raised to admire Europe and to believe that everything from food to houses to education was better there.
Then I grew up, visited (and briefly lived) in Europe, and discovered…hey, Dad was right! Food and houses are generally better, and the people I met did seem better educated.
In short, I am a great admirer of Europe and hope to return soon. When I meet a European living in America, I often feel sorry for them that they’ve had to leave Europe, even though I know plenty of people love America too. (I love it myself.)
You don’t think that’s a slightly rose-tinted view of the history of Civil Rights?
I can only really speak for Britain, but I do not recognise this picture of authoritarian, illiberal government that you are painting, notwithstanding any small moves in that direction that the current government may have made. We do have a Bill of Rights, as well as the European Convention on Human Rights and various other measures.
Lizard: WW2 was not a world war until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
I get your point though
I’ve gone to Europe many times, both for leisure and for business. Mostly to France, Germany, or Belgium, but several times to England and Hungary, and once or twice to various other countries.
For leisure I absolutely love it. Especially France. But for business I can take it or leave it. A few years ago I was on an assignment in Stuttgart for several weeks. At first it was a great experience. But by the end of the second week I was exhausted, it was horribly hot, I was doing nothing but work, and I just wanted to go home.
My parents are WWII refugees from Europe. Although they like to go back to visit on occasion, they’ve told me that there’s no way on earth they’d ever live there again. For them, the idea that Europe has intrinsically more enlightened social ideas is laughable.
Ed
That’s interesting. Could you expand on the subject?
Europe is a lot like what we wish the whole world could be. The formerly poor countries in Southern Europe have come up nicely, and you have a mosaic of different languages, cultures, and countries where crossing a border doesn’t mean being shocked by the poverty. Countries like Spain and Ireland used to be considered relatively poor, and now they seem to be doing better than fine.
Secretly? I’ve openly envied the Europeans’ right to move and work freely all over the continent several times here; and I’ve just done it again.
pizzabrat I think it has more to do with unachievable goals of assimilation. They want the immigrants to be British, they never will be, not in the way an immigrant can become and American. Something about the nature of Britain that is different from America. They don’t have the melting pot effect, though from my understanding it’s better in Britain than it is in France.
John Mace I don’t know how applicable your example is. I do understand your point about immigrant education. The place I disagree with you on is your comparisons to Mexico. We share a multiple thousand mile sparsely guarded border with Mexico and generally we want Mexicans to come here and build us cheap houses and border fences. They are an integral part of the economy, and mostly people care about it when it can be raised as a wedge issue. Mexicans don’t have a terrible time assimilating culturally, the only time it’s a problem is if they cannot get the proper visa. There is a sort of harmony with Mexican immigrants here. France on the other hand does not share a border that people can just stroll across with any Muslim nation, so why do they let them in? They also do not have a melting pot effect. They want people to become truly French, which is almost like transmuting Lead into Gold.
Honestly I don’t think the situation in Britain is as bad as you describe - especially in comparison to the US. I’d say it’s pretty much the same, in fact.
It seems to be the fashion to say that Europeans by their nature have a more forward view of social ideas than Americans, from the death penalty to sexual freedom to religious tolerance.
To my parents, who are both Holocaust survivors, the idea is absurd. It was those same Europeans who put them in the camps.
Ed
Surely those particular Europeans are dead now?
Why? My grandfather is still alive and kicking and he fought in WWII. There are many people in their 70’s that fought in WWII and many more in their early 80’s. WWII vets aren’t rare yet.
Well OK, but it’s not like the Nazis are shaping European social policy these days, is it?
My grandparents on my father’s side were also immigrants, although not refugees. They shared the same view as suranyi’s parents, although I am not sure why. FWIW they were non-Jews from Germany. They and the many, many family members who “came over” had absolutely no interest in going back, not for anything, not even for a visit. I think it had to do with the fact that back around the turn of the century (that’s 1800s to 1900s) the opportunities for advancement and self-improvement were much greater on the western side of the Atlantic. Society in Germany at the time was very rigidly stratified, and you had best know your proper place and stay in it, or else.
My in-laws, however, were WWII refugees from Ukraine. My husband spent most of his youth, from infancy to preadolescence as a displaced person. My MIL, even when it was possible to travel back after the end of the USSR had no desire to do so; she said she wanted to remember her homeland as it was, not as it had become since her departure in 1942. She is still with us at 92 y.o, and has said she’s very grateful for the medical care she’s getting here as compared to what is reported to her in letters from relatives back in the Old Country.