It was not so long ago that every year the USA would review the state of respect for human rights by the Chinese government and an argument between the two parties would ensue. China saying its our internal affairs and none of your business and the USA saying human rights are everybody’s affair. Oh, how things have changed! The human rights situation have been steadily improving in China and worsening in the USA so many people keep a closer eye on the USA.
This year’s Amnesty International report on the USA does not paint a pretty picture.
The USA should take steps to improve its record in this regard. (And so should China and many other countries.)
Even if America doesn’t care about the rights of these people, it looks very, very bad on them to be running roughshod over the human rights of people in America and then bombing other countries in the name of “democracy” and “freedom” and “justice.”
I think the referenced detentions are worthy of note by AI, but the human-rights situation in the USA is still light-years better than that in China (or Iran or Burma or Zimbabwe or Syria or Iraq* or…), no matter how much they’ve improved.
*Yes, Iraq now. Absence of human rights doesn’t require denial of same by a central government.
It’s unclear to me that the US needs to take as extreme a position as it has, especially regarding the folks detained in the US after 9/11. I’d like to see more due process on that front.
As for the Guantanimo detainees, this is more nuanced. While I think there are good arguments on both sides, I do believe that the Geneva convention might need some updating in order to deal with the realities of terrorism today that didn’t exist in previous generations. Is there a standing committee anywhere that would be the apporpirate body to address this issue?
“Death sentences continued to be imposed and carried out under state and federal law. There were reports of police brutality, deaths in custody and ill-treatment in prisons and jails.”
The death penality is the law of the land in the US. Most people here do not accept it to be a human right issue. As for the “there were reports…” charge, well, what happened? Did AI run out of charges and want to dis the US a little more?
As far as putting the US and China in the same category wrt Human Rights, that just doesn’t make sense. It’s not clear that you were doing that in the OP, but some people might read it that way. When China comes close to surpassing the US in human rights behavior, we’ll know it by the reversal of immigration. Instead of 1000s of Chinese fleeing to the US every year, perhaps it’ll be the other way around. But don’t hold your breath for that one.
Hey, if the rest of the world has gotten past the need for officially sanctioned murders, and the U.S. hasn’t, that makes us barbarians in comparison, plain and simple. Doesn’t matter if it’s “the law of the land” or not.
I also think the U.S. oughtta be called for having such widespread homosexual rape in prison. If it’s nearly as much of a problem as it’s reported to be, then the jailers HAVE to be in on it, if only by “turning a blind eye to it.”
We’re still better than those asshat countries that torture prisoners … which would be most Third World countries … but let’s see where Asscroft has us headed in a few years …
Here’s the BBC link, including pictures of the cruel Sesame Street muppets, who are being used to torture prisoners.
I could find this funny, if real horrors weren’t being reported almost daily from Iraq. It’s utterly disgusting to see AI focusing on rock music and Sesame Street, instead of mass graves, warehouses full of corpses, children’s prisons, people buried alive, routine use of torture, gassing of civilians, and gang rape.
And nobody has said otherwise but that is a very poor excuse. The point is that it is getting worse and not better and also, I suspect, it is quite worse than in most European countries.
So John Mace can every country use “The law of the land” argument.
I agree that it any country looked at will get criticism from AI. I believe Ireland came in for criticism for prisoner treatment recently but when was the last time you heard an Irish politician or citizen spout on about here being the great home of freedom and fairness in the world.
Guantanimo is shameful. Give those people their rights take the moral highground back from your detractors and if the law says that the guys should be locked up, lock the fuckers up. It’s perceived hypocrisy that’s causing a lot of Anti-US rhetoric around the world.
And yet december you’d post a link to a AI report about the Palestinians being wrong in a heart beat. Human Rights watch also have heavily criticised the US over this issue. In fact find me a NGO that looks at these things that doesn’t and I may take you a bit more seriously.
december, do you have anything to say on the report itself? Why do you just go about the threads smearing those groups you disagree with? For every person on Earth who believes AI is hard to take seriously, there are hundreds who believe the USA is evil and imperialistic. Dragging those opinions into this thread does no good. We are talking about the human rights record of the USA so please stop your smear campaign. I linked to the AI report. Are there any falsehoods there? If not, is that a good state of things?
A matter of opinion. Why is the death penalty any more cruel than life in prison? One could make a strong case, based on basic principles of human psychology, that the latter is more cruel than the former.
Do you have data indicating that this is worse in the US than in other countries? Prison life is tough. Brutality by guards cannot be defended, but anyone who thinks it’s possible to make prison life some sweet wonderland of joy isn’t being realisitic.
The portion of the AI report you quoted is a mass of spin. First of all, the report doesn’t mention the exemplary treatment being given the prisoners in Cuba, in terms of food, shelter, medical care, etc. AFAIK they have better treatment than any group of prisoners in history. That one-sidedness is typical of AI’s anti-Americanism.
They weren’t arrested; they were captured during a battle.
Since when have fighters caught during a battle ever been provided with these things?
Whether the Geneva Convention applies is a debatable point, for reasons that have been addressed in earlier threads, which an honest report would acknowledge. However, the prisoners’ level of care fully meets the Geneva Convention requirement for POWs.
“There were conerns”??!! How can one evaluate such a vague statement, in the passive voice? Who was concerned and with what grounds?
How many of the 1200 were deprived of safeguards under international law? In what way were they so deprived?
And, properly so.
No doubt, somewhere in the United States there have been cases of police brutality, deaths in custody and ill-treatment in prisons and jails. That’s true of every prison system that ever existed. The proper question is whether the US record is abnormal.
AI has a hard-on for the United States. Too bad. Otherwise they could be a useful organization.
that’s news to me. The news I have are quite different in terms of their being mistreated, not being allowed any outside contact or legal defense, not being recognised basic rights, etc.
[quote]
That one-sidedness is typical of AI’s anti-Americanism.They weren’t arrested; they were captured during a battle. Since when have fighters caught during a battle ever been provided with these things? Whether the Geneva Convention applies is a debatable point, for reasons that have been addressed in earlier threads, which an honest report would acknowledge. However, the prisoners’ level of care fully meets the Geneva Convention requirement for POWs.Either they are prisoners of war and the Geneva Convention applies or they are not prisoners of war and then they are common criminals with a right to due process. There are no other alternatives. But even if the USA could find some legal alternative, that does not deny the fact that these people are being treated worse than any prisoners in other developed countries. It may be legal in China to do certain things and that does still not make it right. Even if what the US government is doing is legal (and I believe it is not) it is still not right.
AI has a pretty good record for impartiality when reporting on the state of human rights around the world. Which cannot be said of december.
What a very ironic statement. Sadly, it is lost on 80% of the peopel who read it.
Anywho, i cannot explain away or justify the Gitmo treatment but i do consider it to only be a minimal/moderate human rights abuse, not a major one. i agree that the US needs to do more to reform its prisons. But i don’t agree with everything AI said just because they are AI. Police brutality for instance. In the US, individuals can report brutality and/or sue for either financial compensation or the dismissal of the officer. I think police brutality is exaggerated in the US, but i’d prefer an org. like AI point out minor failings rather than just ignore the issue.
In regards to human rights in general, there are conflicting reports. Some say the conditions are worse, some say they are better.
go here and look up the article “TORTURE: Combating Terrorism Has Not Led To Increased Use, Expert Says”
According to freedom house “Freedom and democracy made significant worldwide progress in 2002 despite threats posed by global terrorism, according to a major survey released today by Freedom House.”
Only when it fits their political agenda. They have been less-than-honest about certain regimes in the past, and have commonly displayed a sometimes singleminded antiAmericanism that approaches the farcicle. So, in other words, I simply don’t care what they have to say, anymore than I would for Carrottop.
What a very ironic statement. Sadly, it is lost on 80% of the peopel who read it.
Anywho, i cannot explain away or justify the Gitmo treatment but i do consider it to only be a minimal/moderate human rights abuse, not a major one. i agree that the US needs to do more to reform its prisons. But i don’t agree with everything AI said just because they are AI. Police brutality for instance. In the US, individuals can report brutality and/or sue for either financial compensation or the dismissal of the officer. I think police brutality is exaggerated in the US, but i’d prefer an org. like AI point out minor failings rather than just ignore the issue.
In regards to human rights in general, there are conflicting reports. Some say the conditions are worse, some say they are better.
go here and look up the article “TORTURE: Combating Terrorism Has Not Led To Increased Use, Expert Says”
According to freedom house “Freedom and democracy made significant worldwide progress in 2002 despite threats posed by global terrorism, according to a major survey released today by Freedom House.”
So it depends on where you look.
From Freedom House
“While some repressive governments use the global war on terrorism to justify crackdowns on peaceful political opponents, the survey’s findings suggest that overall, the world has not seen a serious erosion of human rights since September 11, 2001,” said Freedom House President Adrian Karatnycky."
From the UN wire
Despite growing international tensions linked to the fight against terrorism, U.N. Committee Against Torture Chairman Peter Thomas Burns today cited “a clear decline in cases of torture, especially in some parts of world.”
No. Whether a competent tribunal would find these prisoners to be POWs might be a matter of legitimate dispute, but the Conventions clearly state that their status must be determined by a competent tribunal and until then they must be afforded the status of POWs. It hasn’t been. That is not a debatable point, it is fact.