I’m just waiting for when the Bush Administration will declare Amnesty International to be “irrelevant.”
(And then, ten seconds later, the Usual Suspects around here will start parroting the phrase…)
Indeed it is debateable. In fact, you are likely wrong. You can’t take one out of context section of the Geneva Convention (which is reams of associated treaties & such), and now claim you are the high justicar of International law. You see, the Geneva Con is enforced by the Geneva Inspectors, who investigate & inspect. I know they have visited the facility where we keep these prisoners- and AFAIKthe Geneva Inspectors have not issued a formal complaint against the USA for this issue.
YOU, my dear Hawthorne, are not the dude who gets to decide whether or not the USA is in violation of the Convention. Nor is MC. Nor is Amnesty international. Unless… somehow you really ARE a Geneva Inspector?.. or maybe you are a Judge from the Hague? Or- at least an Attorney who is generally recognized as being an expert in International Law? No - I thought not. You are simply a dude who has managed to read one small out of context section of a body of law that is so complex that most lawyers won’t even venture an opinion on it.
So porve the USA is in violation of the Geneva Convetion on this issue. And the only proof is: That the Geneva Inspectors have issued a formal complaint about this. Nothing else is meaningful. You can read part of the Penal code and insist that a State execution is “murder” too. :rolleyes:
Sure, AI lists the USA on their listof “Naughty Nations”. They also list Switzerland, Sweden & Denmark, and everyone else. This is why they have lost any meaning, and have turned themselves into a joke. Isolated instances of rogue police officers taking the law into their own hands is “torture” as much as officially institutionalized, real acts of horrible physical torture by such nations as Iraq. Note that Iraq gets less of a listing from these bozos than the USA does- and AI doesn’t mention the torture and police bruatlity there. AI is now just a joke, a parody of itself, where a minor isolated instance is held against one nation, whereas a general program of such atrocities is glossed over or ignored in nations known to be Human rights cesspools. :mad: :dubious:
Tell you what, Guin. When GENEVA issues a complaint… and we ignore it… let me know. Until then, there is no violation.
Dr. Derth, the passage is in full contet, in those two postings I posted the entire clause on who qualifies to be a prisoner of war, I don’t think it takes an expert on international law (I am not an international law professional but not being so does not mean I cannot comment on obvious abuses and that I haven’t read most documents of international law and studied them in action (as a history sudent I studied the Nuremburg trials)). International law is not as complex as national law because there is far less of it.
Of course there are no such things as ‘Geneva inspectors’ (I remember telling you that a few months ago on another thread), the Geneva Convention provides for the High Signatories to enforce it.
Do you know how much work AI do? - no thought not :rolleyes:. They are active in many countries and let me tell you they dedicate far more of their time and resources to Iraq than the US. They do however produce an annual report on all countries where human rights abuses occur and this is where the OP quotes from.
Don’t you think it’s silly to chastize me for ignorance on international law, when you yourself know nothing about it?
Jeez, we seem to have some sort of fundamental failure of comprehension here. AFAIK, Amnesty documents and catalogs human rights abuse, as best it can, in a small group of clearly and unabiguously defined areas, worldwide. The list I linked to defines in which countries these abuses occurred, nothing more. I’m trying to see where Amnesty a) calls for sanctions or other punishments against any of these nations b) claims that something like cases of prisoner torture or mistreatment in the US are necessarily held against the entire country and its government. Jeez, if they occurred in the US they occurred in the US; end of story.
This argument that Amnesty should ignore abuses they record, simply on the basis of country of occurrence, seems utterly ridiculous.
As for this statement:
Now you know you’re going to be expected to provide a few examples of atrocities ‘glossed over’ by Amnesty, right?
My point is, just because we’re the US doesn’t mean we’re above being called on when we screw up.
In fact, I’d say more than anything we SHOULD be called on it, because we make it a point that we’re a country of freedom and of being civil and respectful, and when we go against that, we fail to live up to our own ideals-the very ideals this nation was founded on.
Just because we’re not as bad as such and such nation, doesn’t mean we get a free pass. We have to keep trying to do BETTER.
Because we are better than that.
What? Say again? Can you provide any support for this? Because I have a feeling you made it up right now. Geneva Inspectors? WTF? Please explain it to me.
I totally agree that you cannot simplify and torture committed or condoned by a state is not comparable to torture committed in violation of the laws and best efforts of that state. Clearly this should be taken into account. My main concern with this report is with abuses carried out by the US government, not with those which are crimes in the USA even though they are still troubling if they happen.
El- you DO know there have been many, many extremely well documented stories of torture by the old Iraqi admin, right? Do you see a mention of those on the AI website? But the USA is accused of “police brutality”? :rolleyes:
Sailor- what- you don’t think the Geneva Convention has Inspectors? They do, mainly Swiss, not surprisingly. How do think the GC is enforced?
Nope, MC you didn’t, and it is much lager than you know- in fact the fact that you think you have a grip on it- despite the fact that legal experts “fear to tread” into those water is proof of your hubris. If you think you are right- file a complaint with the Geneva Inspectors why don’t you? Why do you think you know more about the Convention that they do? Personally, I have no fucking idea if we are in violation or not. I know enough about law to recognize my own inadequacies in this area. I leave interpretation of International Law & treaties to the experts. You aren’t one.
What’s your objection to what is clearly described as a summary?. The details of the violations in each of the countries listed can be read in the full Annual report.
Yes, as a matter of fact I do see page after page of documention of abuses in Iraq on the Amnesty site, going back many years. Start here:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-irq/index&start=1
So I’m afraid I’m having a bit of trouble locating your point. Anyway, feel free to carry on; I’ve really said all I’m going to say on this subject for now.
here are three pieces saying AI is baised. However, 2 are written by conservatives and one is written by a libertarian. And the chuck morse piece seems really baised but his facts seem straight.
I agree with John Mace though, there should be a rating system of abuses. If a few police officers in the US torture suspects against the law and are fired or reprimanbded that will get the same rating of ‘torture’ as a government like Sudan that legally & more brutally tortures tens of thousands a year.
You dudes who think that by reading one small out of context section, you have a handle on this are so laughable. I just checked the website for the Geneva convention. It is huge. Not only are the 1949 Convention & 1977 protocols immense & unfathomable, with dozens & dozens of articles and weasle worded legal clauses, but there are also some 107 other treaties & protocols which are part of the body of law, starting with “Delcaration respecting Maritime law” from 1856 to “Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on Conventioal Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate effects” from 1980. And, you think by reading one small section, you are competant enough to pass judgement. :rolleyes:
Oh, and for those who want to ask the “Geneva boys” themselves, here is the address. Please write them, and let them know you know more about their Treaty than they do, and they have ignored a large and obvious violation. I am sure they will love to hear from you. :rolleyes:
Bundessgrasse 32
CH-3003, Berne
Switzerland.
Hmm, Mods? Can I also post the email addy and/or the phone number?
I am sure you are right and I am admitting I had no idea there was such a thing as “Geneva Convention Inspectors”. I have never seen them in the news. Not that I doubt your word but could you direct me to some reliable sources? How are they organized? Who do they respond to? I had no idea the Geneva Convention set up any kind of independent inspectors. I thought it was a treaty among nations. Can you direct me to where I can find information about this? and where I can read about their visits to Guantanamo and where they said everythoing was OK? I admit I missed all that and I would like to read about it.
Nobody here is trying to make any comparison except those trying to excuse the inexcusable. This is not a ranking of any kind. The report on the USA stands on its own and whatever is wrong should be corrected regardless of how much is wrong with other countries. Evil abroad does not justify evil at home.
When I talk to Chinese people I will tell them my opinion of the Chinese record on that point because they are the ones who need to correct it. But here it is mostly Americans and it is Americans who an and should correct this.
Dr Deth - do these “Geneva Inspectors” – who tend to be Swiss, apparently – have a particular emblem associated with them?
And by the way, why are they called “Geneva Inspectors” if they’re in Bern?
Let’s get this cleared up there are no such things as GENEVA Inspectors. Geneva is the name of the town where the treaties were signed.
The Geneva Convention’s own provision for enforcment is the contracting parties (i.e. the countries that have signed it), additionally the UN is dedicated in it’s charter to upholding the Geneva Convention.
The International Red Cross/ Crescent/ Star/ Lion was a group set up at the first Geneva Convention to aid the sick and injured and not for the enforcment of the Geneva Convention.
DrDeth, for goodness sakes just give it up!!!
I have had been traveling to China and had Chinese friends since 1996 and every year the topic of Chinese record on human rights would be in the news and in our conversations. The Chinese would be miffed by the use of this argument by the US which they saw as a cynical, self-interested, use and they would say the USA should mind its own business and not interfere in their internal affairs. I always argued that this was not the case at all and that they needed to understand western culture a bit better.
I explained that for us, human rights are the very basis of our morals and our culture and they come before any government. Governments derive their powers from the people and are supposed to protect these rights. I assured them that our insistence on the topic of human rights was not a cinical and in bad faith but a genuine concern for something which is inherent to our culture and our sincere interest in the human rights of every Chinese person.
I explained that European countries had no problem subjecting themselves to a higher European tribunal on this issue and would not fear loss of sovereignty on this issue and rather felt that their voluntarily accepting the rulings of the European courts enhanced rather than diminished the guearantees of human rights for their citizens. A citizen who felt wronged by his government could now appeal to the European Court and i have no doubt this results in an increased guarantee in human rights. I argued China should not be afraid to become more engaged with other nations because this would result in greater guarantees for its own citizens and, in exchange, China’s voice would have more weight in other countries, both of which are good things for China. Rogue countries are not good for themselves or for others. Countries that engage and negotiate and listen to other countries are doing good for themselves and for the rest of the world.
I often cited the USA as an example to be followed. A country where the government was subject to the rule of law, and had to justify its actions. A country part of the world community of nations which listened and cared about other countries concerns.
The policies the USA has followed for the last couple of years totally undermine my arguments. The USA indeed has used the human rights issue cynically and has stopped respecting them at home when it was not convenient. It has stopped cooperating in the issue of the ICJ and other international issue. Where China is moving in the right direction the USA is now moving in the wrong direction. And just like I criticized China for their record, I feel compelled to criticize the USA when the circumstances demand it. And I hope the USA can soon return to being the example to the world that is represented by the great principles on which it is founded and which are now not being respected.
I have a feeling the one who hasn’t got a clue is you but i am still waiting for you to explain to me about those “inspectors” and how they found everything Ok in Guantanamo. Please support your assertions or kindly admit you haven’t the foggiest clue of what you are talking about.