[QUOTE=]
This is what you think makes your argument about how everyone knows what’s attractive in jewelry? Yeah, we don’t agree about science.
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Good thing I didn’t make that argument then, or anything vaguely like it.
[QUOTE=TokyoBayer]
OK, I typed “woman” into google and randomly picked one of the top images.
Show me how the equations for picking a statement necklace for this woman
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And this bears a resemblance to what I said how, exactly?
I didn’t say it’s proof that he doesn’t love her. But, face it, if he doesn’t even try to change after being told how upsetting his lack of thought/effort is to her, it can certainly be interpreted as further proof of his indifference.
To expand on this, I think a lot of people are really, really ignorant about how much work holidays are. In fact, I think there are probably a lot of people who really, honestly, think “it’s not that bad, we all chip in and do our share” and basically have no clue how much has to happen and how little their “chipping in” and helping with the dishes at the end really contributes to the total workload. It’s not a matter of feeling like what you do it taken for granted: what you do really IS taken for granted because people don’t see/understand how much work keeping everything going is.
I mean, we don’t really do much at all in my family, compared to some: we don’t do gifts, and don’t really decorate, but just keeping a huge house full of people fed on “special” food for three meals a day for a couple days is pretty overwhelming.
When they are your children, you can teach them that.
How much do they see and understand about how much work everything is during the rest of the year?
So long as we talk about “helping [Mom] with house work”, so long as we consider it HER job and not a matter of having OUR house in good shape, we’re, well, putting it in her corner. And Mom is often the first one who does that.
There is a phenomenon I see many women (particularly moms) get cornered into, and that is “The person stuck having to do everything”. The way this works is that everyone sits on their hands until the person most concerned/passionate loses patience/faith and just does it themselves.
As soon as they take it upon themselves to do it alone, it gives everyone else the illusion that their contribution was not needed, after all, wife/mom is doing fine all on her own! Sometimes excuses are thrown in “I was just about to help you” “I didn’t know you wanted to work on this today”, “I don’t care nearly as much about this as you do”.
If you’ve been married to someone a number of years, you’re going to know pretty early on if they are really into xmas. When I was dating my wife I observed how involved she was in helping her family decorate and shop for gifts. She enjoyed it, but she enjoyed the support of her loved ones even more. So when we got married, it was very important that I support her by contributing, putting up xmas lights (because I am tall) and doing some shopping/wrapping (for her gift its a given, obviously 
). I’m not as gung ho about decorating, but its important to her, and showing her my support means a lot.
What some people don’t realize is that when you support your spouse in this way, they often have a very realistic expectation of what you are willing to do. If you don’t really like decorating/wrapping but do it with enthusiasm, they will often still do the lion’s share of it, but 1.)Not feel like they are alone in the task, and 2.)Appreciate your support. When a husband is being lazy and making excuses to his wife to the point that the kids pick up on it and also end up being lazy excuse makers, it can feel like the wife’s whole family is turning on her. This can make her get frustrated and any passive agression might be attritbuted to her being so frustrated/overwhelmed/disappointed by her family’s laziness or passivity that she feels she has to do everything and nobody appreciates the effort.
Of course this isn’t universal. Some people are passive agressive because they are manipulative or mean. I’m not on anyone’s “side” in this discussion; I don’t know if nearwildheaven’s mom acts the way she does because she feels like her family doesn’t support her, or she acts the way she does because she is just passive agressive for no reason. Could go either way.
Nava, this is something I learned very quickly in my own marraige. I avoid the word ‘helping’ with my wife, because there are a lot of situations where she is going to interpret me ‘helping’ her as “I have 0% stake or responsibility in this task but I’m going to throw her some crumbs to show I care”. The reality is I have just as much of a stake in it as she does, particularly with all the mundane year round stuff (cleaning the house, taking care of bills, mundane stuff like that).
For me to minimize my stake in it would be an insult to my wife. To imply I’m just ‘helping’ vs ‘contributing’ is taking a very passive approach to my marraige where I’m sitting back waiting for her to do all the work then stepping in at the last moment to make it look like I’m doing something. If a wife or mom is exhasperated by this attitude, I wouldn’t be shocked if they had lowered expectations.
Now some people are going to chime in and say “Yeah well ok I don’t care about xmas AT ALL its a pointless holiday why should I contribute to something I care nothing about?” here’s the thing: If you want your wife to support you on something you take seriously, you need to show her the same level of dedication with something she takes seriously. I’m not as into xmas as my wife is, but she’s not as into many things as I am. She supports me in my interests, goes to see the movies I like to see, eats at the restaurants I like, indulges me when I feel like a homebody and dont want to go anywhere for the day, etc. So I think its only reasonable I support her in something equally important to her.
Yup, teaching that as much as I can. The Little One is not quite 4, but she’s doing what she can – all the ornaments on our tree were put on by her (which means they’re bottom-heavy, but we’re thrilled that she did it herself with just a little help here and there), she wanted Christmas treats so she and Daddy made treats together, she helped me put together the presents for her teachers and delivered them to the teachers herself (which for her, because of her social issues, is a big deal).
Here’s the thing. My mom did everything for us, did all the holiday tasks (and all the non-holiday tasks as well) herself. I don’t remember lifting a finger during the holidays, or during the rest of the year, to decorate, cook, give presents, anything. My husband’s mother taught her kids to do all these tasks. My husband, for example, was making cookies by himself (except for putting them in the oven), and cleaning up behind himself too, by the time he was 6 or 7. They all had regular chores that they were expected to do, as well.
Guess which set of kids are now a) the more functional adults b) more likely to do nice things for their parents without a whole lot of prompting c) considered to be the more grateful children.
Oh, God - this is probably some obvious hint for what you want for Christmas!
sweating
trembling
I need more help! Please don’t hit me!
I teach them that, but I ALSO teach them that sometimes you do something for someone else - like find their stockings for them and hang them up - because you love them. Sometimes you try your best to meet their expectations - because you love them. Sometimes you make things special for them - because you love them.
I think making functional adults involves a lot more than one single parenting lesson - but teaching you children many things - some contradictory. Including “sometimes people who love you do things for you even when it isn’t their favorite thing in the world to do” and its corollary “sometimes you just do things for people you love, even if it isn’t your favorite thing in the world to do.” Personally, I think it would suck to have a mother who refused to bake Christmas cookies unless everyone took time from their busy teenage schedules to help out. Or who didn’t go find your stocking when you were four because “you want it, you can find it and hang it up.” Granted, I also teach my kids the other lesson - “if you wanted to get together with Maggie, you needed to pick up the phone and call her,” and, now that they are older “make yourselves lunch - make some for me too while you are at it.”
That other website has a lot of women who deal with this kind of thing, too, and honestly, I’m sure it’s a major reason why I have never once had a divorced woman tell me IRL that single parenthood is harder. 100% of the time, they’ve said that raising children is MUCH, MUCH easier without a husband. Several of them have told me that online, but that’s it.
Another thing that happens a lot is a husband who says, regarding housework or (especially) child care, is “Make me.” :dubious:
As for my dad, he got out of doing housework and child care by just not coming home. During school vacations, we just plain old didn’t see him at all; he’d leave the house before we got up and came home after we went to bed (maybe). Granted, he DID work multiple jobs, but nobody just coincidentally works every minute of the day that there are children in the house and awake.
Right now, when I don’t work for a living, and my husband takes off on a two week business trip - it IS easier without him - its one less body to pick up after, less laundry, one less schedule to worry about (will he be home for dinner? Should I defrost something, or can the kids and I just do scrambled eggs?)
When I was working - no way was it easier. Because although I took most of the kids duties with regards to dentists and school pickups - he took a few of them. And while I did a lot of the housework (anything involving a mop, a dustcloth, or a vaccuum), he did a lot of the laundry and dishes, and a lot of the cooking. When he was gone on a business trip when I worked, it was a LOT harder. Which is why, when he took a new job that was going to involve a lot more travel, we decided I should stay home.
But then, I have a darn good husband who is a darn good father to my kids. He sometimes forgets to make Christmas personal, and there are some tasks he just doesn’t do. But he picks up most of his own messes and some of mine and some of the kids. He cooks, he does dishes and laundry. I can see where women who are married to men who simply aren’t at all helpful think single parenting is easier.
One year, my ex asked me what I wanted, and I told him to make a donation to my favorite charity. Which is what he did. I didn’t ask him, so I bought him about 4 or 5 gifts. Christmas morning we joined a couple of friends for gift-opening. It was a very festive occasion as each person discovered what his SO gave him. But in spite of knowing my gift was helping someone who needed it . . . I felt left out and depressed. So if you or your SO is making a donation, please give him/her a token “real” gift as well.
Oh, and my SO complained about every single thing I gave him. Just one reason why he became my “ex.”
You said there is a line between ugly and pretty jewelry. “In reality, the line between “beautiful, elegant, stylish” and “ugly” is pretty damn clear when general principles have been laid down.”
So, how is there any ugly jewelry?
My mom and I do this. So if the person’s gift is an “experience” we will still get them a physical gift, usually something small and inexpensive, for them to open.
I didn’t read everything in this long thread, but from what I did read it is clear to me that present giving is much more of a minefield than I ever suspected. Those of us who have been married a long time have probably worked out our own solutions by now, but I think that the debate here is about a lot more than just presents. It is about the relationship as a whole.
I do not consider myself as a sensitive person, and my wife would probably agree, but, as with most things in our marriage, we compromise. In fact at Christmas we have usually bought each other something we wanted for the house - new washing machine/dishwasher/furniture, whatever.
Of course, after a faux pas early on, I do put all my powers into buying some inexpensive gift as a surprise, just as she does for me. I tend to get in early, like August, with this, even though I have been caught out when she unknowingly bought it for herself.
Actually though, after reading the thread, I an thinking of changing. In future I will get my secretary to have a word with my wife’s personal shopper who can buy whatever, wrap and deliver it. This will save me from faux pas and, indeed, any effort at all.
Precisely. I’m not saying it’s manipulative. I’m saying there is (in half or more of the cases) a plethora of information around the house or even spoken to him/them about what you/we might like as a gift. Either they are in “noticing” mode or “purge or ignore” mode. The latter types will consequently have no idea what would make a good gift.
Here you go:
I realize there is ugly jewelry. In my opinion, there is little attractive jewelry.
The existence of ugly jewelry is good evidence that it’s a matter of taste, not science. If we all agreed about what makes jewelry beautiful, the ugly stuff would not exist.
Each website or message board has a particular sort of person that frequents it. There are a lot of women (including me) who visit this message board and it seems like very few are in a situation where they do all the work, want a present but say they don’t because it’s better than admitting no one cares about them enough to get them one, the same situation that is apparently common to many of the visitors of the other website nearwildheaven visits.
These two data points don’t really tell us at all how common the situation is in general. They just tell us that women with that problem tend to be there and not here.
I never decorate much at my house. My husband’s family did, and he missed it a bit. One year I asked, very sincerely, for my gift to be him decorating our house the way he kept telling me he missed. He did it. He’s never really mentioned wanting to do that again. Either he realized he’d stopped liking it so much, or he realized it was more work than he wanted to put in.