An epiphany regarding a liberal paradox...

Great Debates
101

Dear ** Starving Artist**,

Whew! See! These left-wing-thinkers are descended from cattle. The herd instinct is their only message.
Blindly, literally, they bellow loweringly and then follow their teaming herdmates; maybe to the promised land of sweet smelling clover, or, kerplunk, kersplash, over the clift and into the sea. It doesn’t matter, they are herbivorates and herbivorates don’t think for themselves, they are kine, they think not much at all.

But evenso, ** Starving Artist**, that’s not the reason I intruded into your fine, well-presented thread, I intrude because I want to tell you about ** December**.
** December** was a prolific poster who’s thinking was a bit like yours and mine. One day last year before you started posting December was busily engaged in a thread like this one of yours, and like a similar one of mine, when suddenly he was blackballed.
Why?
Well, ** December**, it was decided, was a troll! :eek:

This was curious. ** December** was always the most circumspect of poststers, so much in fact, that it seems that my own strident voice most times gave him pause. You see, ** December** loved this board, he thought that it was the new voice of electronic egalitarianism.

Poor ** December** did not know that he was a ** troll**.
I didn’t either. As a matter of fact I didn’t even know what a **troll **was.
And still don’t.

I emailed ** December**, and told him that I would be willing to start a thread in Great Debates debating the proposition that if the slogan “fighting ignorance” had any application and validity in the message board Straight Dope, that we the posters should at least have a clear and unambigious understanding of the nebulous term "** troll**.

No! ** December** emailed back. I must have been bad, he said, so I’ll wait a couple of months and see if they will let me back in. I love this board.
Then he thanked me and said good-bye.

Two months later December wrote me back.

Dear Milum,
The Straight Dope board has rejected my application to be reinstated. Please don’t worry. Now I can have a real life. I am sorry if I failed to contribitute anything much worthy to the Straight Dope Forum.
December.

December is a retired accountant ( actually an actuary) who lives somewhere up in upstate New York. He is a mild, gentle, kind man who wouldn’t hurt a flea. So here is what I propose…

I propose a kangeroo court on Great Debates to try ** December** in absence, with the charge of him being a “troll” with the popular vote of the contributors to the thread being the determinate. Those of the left can chose the prosecutor if they wish, and we of the right can provide if we wish a proper defence.
While the product of this exerise will be to establish a semanatical meaning to “trollism” so that all posters to this illustrous board can behave in accord with the dictates of the decision.

Of course, the dictates of the Administrators are paramount, and so they will tell me if I am out of order in this request for clarification; Otherwise I will presume that I may proceed.

Thank you.

102

December got banned like any other troll. He’s already had all the ‘due process’ he was entitled to.

This is completely irrelevant to this thread. Have a bitch in the Pit or something…

103

Milum, you’re REALLY not helping Starving Artist here.

104

I don’t think he’s even helping himself, given his recent dust-ups in Cafe Society and Great Debates.

105

I promised **EddyTeddyFreddy **that I would take a deep breath, step back and try to be less…uh, agressive?..in my posts, so I will just politely ask, *what *dust-ups in Cafe Society?

(Boy, that wasn’t much fun, was it? How was it for you?)

And Milum, I’ll have to get back to ya. I sense the need to give this a lot of thought and research. In the meantime, hang in there. We’re rootin’ for ya (not to get banned, that is.):wink:

106

Hey now, speak for yourself.

107

Nitpick: Not literally. You mean figuratively. If they were literally bellowing they’d be mooing as they typed.

For God’s sake, please don’t try this. Do you remember when you said this?

I’m being serious, Milum, for your own sake. Unless you are determined to commit suicide by mod, please don’t start another thread dredging up the december incident again, especially in GD instead of the Pit where banning discussions should go.

108

Milum recently got a last and final warning in this thread for accusing another poster of trolling. If he started a thread on december’s banning in Great Debates instead of the Pit (which he has done twice before)…well, it would not be good.

109

Thank you, pravnik. These are the sorts of things I was referring to when I said I felt the need to do some research before getting involved in something like this, which has evidently been going on since long before I got here. I appreciate the info in both your posts.

110

Talking about inordinate fixations, it is resident lefties who invoke the name of December every time somebody disagrees with them. I was called 'another December’ a few times, and I don’t even know who December is.

111

This is another reason I’m skeptical the other way, too. I’ve seen december’s name drug out time and again over relatively benign posts espousing a conservative point of view. I know for a fact based on accusations and insults hurled my way that one doesn’t necessarily have to behave egregiously to come in for a hell of a lot of criticism, insults and abuse here. But I will say also – and given that I’m a relatively new poster here, I don’t know how things were handled in the past – but it looks to me like it’s not exactly a slam-dunk to get someone banned around here. Take the case of our beloved Milum, for example. He has received warnings in at least Cafe Society and the Pit, including a final warning, but he has still not been banned…even after a thread opened in the Pit asking for moderator clarification on him and making several requests or suggestions that he be banned, yet he is still here. And those of us who would hate to see him banned are given a chance to speak our minds and give our opinions as to why we think this would be wrong.

So, it appears to me that there are two sides to the story here, and since I wasn’t around at the time I think it would probably be best if I didn’t become involved in it at this late date.

(Sorry, Milum, you know that, by and large, I got your back. But here I’m afraid I must demur.) :wink:

112

Then you should have no problem refuting my most recent post in this thread (that’s post #94, just to get you there), which contains a totally non-ideological refutation of the OP.

If you are unable to do so, you will have been out-thought by cattle, which is what I fully expect. After all, there’s a big difference between a drive-by insult and a logical argument. Your talent for the former is undeniable; your talent for the latter is undemonstrated.

113

Having read/skimmed most of this thread I have come to a conclusion that reading it was a complete waste of time because I already knew the lesson this thread teaches. In case anyone, especially the OP, is interested in it, here you go.

Any time you feel you have had an “epiphany” regarding some widely-held or long-standing political viewpoint it is best to remain silent on the point because 99.999% of the time all you’ve done is misunderstand the viewpoint. The marvelous revelation you’ve had only exists because of your own flawed understanding of the actual issue.

This is like reading Huckleberry Finn and then running around telling everyone the book would have been great if they hadn’t used the word “nigger” so much or that Twain must have been a racist. You’ve completely missed the whole point. As such no reasonable literary scholars are going to discuss the issue with you because, well, you missed the whole freaking point. Your personal, unique, beautiful, snowflake of a mind just missed the whole, freaking, huge, enormous point. At some point the message of the viewpoint in the book, or in this case the viewpoint of the anti-war folks, was chugging along towards the center of the brain and your own personal reasoning facilities missed a siding along the way and the point ended up jumping the track somewhere and causing a big mess. This is not the fault of the people who hold the viewpoint, nor are they responsible for explaining to you why your faulty judgements should not apply. Just like Mr. Twain need not defend himself against charges of racism from people who missed the whole freaking point.

Enjoy,
Steven

114

December was an infamous extreme right-wing poster who was disliked by many, not because of his politics, but because of his habit of quoting questionable sources as though they were objective, using disingenous arguments, obfuscation, repeating arguments that had already been proven false, starting threads merely to espouse right-wing ideology without any real debate in mind, etc.

He was banned.

If people are calling you “December”, it ain’t good.

115

Case in point.

116

Point, in case?

117

:: Beaming proudly at the acolyte ::

You have done well, Grasshopper.

118

::regards EddyTeddyFreddy with beatific expression::

Thank you, o’ wise and all seeing guide to the SDMB. It is indeed an honor to be spoken of in such a way by one who has shown herself to be so prescient in so many ways. Words fail in the attempt to express one’s appreciation for one such as you who is not only all knowing and all wise, but also possesses such credibility as to have her opinions and warnings taken seriously, all the while seeking non but the happy and successful SDMB experience of her faithful accolytes.

You are indeed one to be hononed. Again, I express to you my most humble and grateful appreciation.

:smiley:

And by the by, I’ve been trying to fight the good fight and back off more than a little and I’ve tried to adopt a less vigorous style, but I fear my attempts to behave in a way more in keeping with the way I would with you will soon prove to have been in vain. The agressive, belligerent and insulting ways of my opponents continue unabated, and I’m afraid I may soon have to strap on the guns again. :dubious:

Many regards my friend,
SA

119

Starving Artist, if someone called you a December, then the label is being used too casually. Although you and I frequently disagree, you seem to have an earnestness about you that December was lacking. No one expects perfection from you, but I haven’t seen the duplicitiousness that was December’s calling card.

Further, I can’t imagine your ever having to resort to such losing debate tactics as name-calling or insulting a group rather than attacking an opposing view. Most of us have lost our tempers at one time or another, but the main focus is still on debating ideas – not on hurling elementary school taunts.

Besides, with EddyTeddyFreddy as a mentor, you have been given a big break in Straight Dope life. She is cool. :cool:

120

Thank you very much, Zoe. I have to admit however, that the last few days I have indeed been guilty of some of the things you mention. It’s hard no to respond in kind when you are continually insulted, called names, have your positions exaggerated or misconstrued and then attacked for this exaggerated behavior, and attacked again in other forums in your absence as was the case with the Pit thread in which you saw me criticised. As I told EddyTeddyFreddy, I’ve been trying to fight the good fight and not employ the “gives as good as he gets, and then some” method of posting behavior, but hardly any time passes before I begin to think, as I said to her, I find I’ll probably have to strap on the guns again.

I tend to give what I get. If a person is reasonable and rational in their disagreement with me, I respond to them in the same way. But if a person is insulting and/or accusatory, I do tend to respond in a less gracious way than I would have otherwise.

But thank you again. It is the good people such as you and **EddyTeddyFreddy **that make me want to behave as well as I can.

(Have you read the “Clarification re Milum” thread since you last posted there? Hentor and I both posted messages for you.) :slight_smile: