To address your question to the value of prostylzing- Jews do not. We believe that following Jewish law is a right and a burden placed on Jews, and that other groups can find righteousness following their own paths (within some specific guidelines, the Noahide laws). We welcome converts who do choose to convert, but people do not need to follow our way to be righteous.
I can find value in it, but I don’t need to convince anyone else to., but if you want to of your own will, welcome aboard.
Not that I hate them now, but I wouldn’t even temporarily feel ire for them if they exactly copied the Girl Scout model – one or two drives per year in safe locations.
By “safe”, I mean both for the organization and for other people. What gets much more of my braintime than door to door knockers is the annoying and dangerous fundraisers/beggars at intersections. I wonder how many accidents are caused by the traffic slowdowns, by them walking out into traffic, and by the general “what the hell is THAT” spectacle they create.
The Girl Scouts don’t do that, and I respect them for it.
Reading all this and being truly educated about the JWs, it’s amazing how far some of these teachings have fallen from their Jewish roots. Just a couple of obvious ones:
I’ve learned that JWs preach that if you have to give up your life to keep G-Ds law about blood transfusions, so be it.
I learned from this (or the other) thread, that JWs feel no such obligation as everything is for the next life. What charity you do give should first be kept within your own group.
No, I didn’t. I intended to receive the POV’s and thinking of individuals who dislike witnesses, and also intended to discuss the obvious (though you claim it’s not) hatred across the worldwide stage directed at JW’s. Coming in here and saying “Nah, nobody hates you, you’re just annoying!” is a bit disingenuous.
Not only did I expect it, I was asking for it.
My premise isn’t wrong. I never restricted this to the US. Your own apathy towards witnesses is not representative of the attitudes of many others.
I’m glad people explained their opinion. The little tiff with **CLee **was a bit extreme, yes, but it seemed a bit of a heavy-handed response and so I returned the volley.
Ah, see, this is one of the great divides between monotheism and polytheism - I don’t believe in just one god. I have no problem with other people being happy worshiping Jesus or whatever, I just don’t believe that is the only way to salvation or happiness or a good afterlife. (I realize followers of Jesus think he’s the only way, but that’s their belief, not mine). It’s not a matter of whether they’re “worth the trouble” but rather leaving them happy where they are and where they are comfortable. Since there is no penalty in swaying them from their beliefs there is no penalty in letting them be (outside of religious abuse, but that comes down to the actions of other humans, not of anything divine).
I am happy to discuss my faith and beliefs with others and share it in that sense, I am not free to coerce others and shove it down their throats. Not all faiths seek converts and may even discourage them because they only want the sincere and dedicated. As an example, Jews are a well known group who do not seek converts and have a long history of discouraging converts (they do accept them, if they’re willing to jump through some hoops to show dedication and sincerity) who nonetheless continue to exist. Likewise, my faith does not require converts or endless growth. If you want to join, fine, but we’re totally OK with you not joining.
Yes, which is why my folks try not to use it. It’s a loaded term.
SOME of you do. Not all JW’s take that step, which results in much headache for the medical world. By and large people go into medicine to save lives, and being confronted with a situation where an unconscious person has left no legal directive and half the family is for an intervention and half the family against is no one’s ides of a good day.
If you have taken this step - clearly specifying what you will and will not accept - then good on you. I hope it will never be necessary to use that directive, but should such circumstances come up you will have made life easier for everyone concerned.
Do you eat meat at al? Then you consume blood. Unless you’re a vegetarian you eat blood when you eat flesh. (I have run into a number of vegetarian JW’s, but I have no idea if they were so as a result of that belief or something else)
Granted, the Jews feel that koshering meat is sufficient to please their G-d, but that’s them. So far as I know JW’s don’t have a comparable ritual for the eating of flesh. Do they or don’t they?
I agree, there have been times and procedures where blood is overused, or not necessary, or no longer needed due to advances in medicine. I agree that there are risks to blood transfusions and minimizing the need for them is a net benefit.
However, there are situations where if you don’t get a blood transfusion you WILL die. I think we should continue the practice because of such things. There are types of surgery nearly impossible to do without blood transfusions, or where the risk of sudden hemorrhage is great. If a JW wants to practice their beliefs they’re simply not going to survive such circumstances. While I disagree with their stance I will respect their beliefs and the right to make their own choices.
But you don’t reject blood transfusions due to medical risks, you reject them because “God said so”. Let’s be clear on that. It’s not reason that led you to that stance, it’s faith.
I don’t believe that, either. I do, however, believe blood transfusions to save a life or treat a disease where appropriate are a good thing and I fully support the use of them in those circumstances.
I get that. I also support your right to do what your god tells you to do. Where there is a problem is that you don’t support MY beliefs. Which, from your viewpoint, is pretty simple - don’t knock on my door or try to convert me. Yes, I know you believe there will be Horrible Consequences - why don’t you allow me to deal with the consequences of my beliefs as I allow you to do deal with the consequences of yours?
Many of Paul’s epistles/letters/screeds whatever you call them - specifically aim to distance Christianity from the Jewish beliefs.
The law here referenced is the old Jewish laws. Traditions of men inspired by God’s directions, oftentimes falling far away from the original intent.
So, yeah, you’re accurate. But saying “fall from” isn’t as correct as “rise from”. The Jewish system was more of a groundwork to build Christianity off of.
Now lets see if you interpret this to mean I’m calling Jews “inferior”. I’m not, but I’m curious as to your initial reaction. If anything, I’m calling Jews the guys who stayed behind on the first train, while Christians got off and continued on with the second train towards their destination. ( if you’re not familiar with NYC’s system of subways, this may be hard to understand )
If you really mean we “stayed on the train” while the Christians got off on a second train, it’s curious to me why you used “rise from” rather than “branched off of”, “departed from”, “evolved from”, “grew apart”, “distanced themselves from”, “differentiated themselves from” etc. The phrase you chose, “rise from”, of course implies some improvement from where you came. Of course you think your way is better than the old Jewish roots or you wouldn’t be doing it. Of course you think the Jews need to get enlightenment since you think even other Christians do.
It’s so disingenuous. You use language that implies exactly what you mean, but immediately ask if I’d take it as meaning Jews are inferior, with the implication that’d I’d be oversensitive if I did!
That’s the false congeniality people are talking about.
And I know fully well that other religions moved away from the Jewish roots. I was saying how amazing it is to me how even farther from it’s basic tenants your branch of Christianity has gone. I don’t think it’s a good path, but it’s your choice. I was observing something I had now learned that I found fascinating, if not also sad.
And BTW, the parenthetical about “if I’m not familiar with NYC subways I might not get it.”. Seriously? How naive and ignorant do you think someone must be to not understand the concept of switching trains? I don’t have to travel from Harlem to Grand Central Terminal daily to have a passing understanding of trains.
And then you went on to defend the source of his problems.
You don’t get to absolve yourself of personal responsibility for the conduct of an entire organization, which seems to be your tactic on refuting most attacks on JW behaviour, when you defend that conduct. Neither do you get to play the “there may be other circumstances”-card for a case where it’s blatantly obvious disfellowshipping is to blame. Sure there may be other factors, but it follows the pattern of all other stories of former JW’s I’ve heard, some of them directly from the involved.
Well OK, let’s go that way.
Jesus said the Jews were lagging behind, and that their “house was abandoned to them”
I follow Jesus (as I understand his teachings to be in the bible).
So call it branching if you want, but to me, it was building off of and rising up from. And my reading of the Pauline letters supports my opinion, one that is shared by many others. Christianity is the next step up from Judaism, while Judaism decided to continue waiting for their messiah, killing the one who showed up because they thought it wasn’t him. Jesus spoke to the Jewish audience, and clearly intended his followers to come primarily and firstly from the Jewish community.
Have I spoken anything untrue yet?
It’s perfectly legal for my congresscritter to robocall me up multiple times and whine and beg and plead for my vote. It’s a right. But that doesn’t make it right. In fact, I think it’s very wrong.
I don’t believe that anyone has an ethical (as opposed to legal) right to bother other random people. Go ahead and practice your religion, as long as you’re not bothering anyone else. And going door-to-door, knocking and ringing, IS going to bother a fair number of the people who are at home at the time. Maybe they’re sleeping. Maybe they just got a colicky baby to sleep. Maybe they are having the most incredible sex ever, and a knock or a ring will put completely take them out of the mood. In all these cases, very few of the people are going to care why, exactly, you woke them up, or woke the baby up, or interrupted their sexy times.
When your beliefs impact other people negatively, then other people are going to start having negative feelings about your beliefs.
Seriously? Truth is a complicated word when discussing the validity of religion. You speak of it as if it is objective and falsifiable and provable.
You want my truth? Jesus didn’t meet the criteria for the messiah and he wasn’t it. The teachings and letters that came after are based on a rotten foundation. Most Jews didn’t follow him because we found him not credible as the messiah.
See how that goes? I believe your truth is in error and you’ve risen above nothing. But, and here’s the kicker, I also believe that you do not have to follow my beliefs! They’re for me to choose to follow and others can find their own path.
So the tack is “you’re one of them, and they’re bad!”
Really? Broad brush, generalizations, groupthink, mob mentality, need I go on describing this attitude?
Look, forgive me for not being clear. There’s lots of JW’s who think along a much narrower path than I do personally. Overall, I still choose to call myself a Witness, for reasons I’ve already mentioned.
That doesn’t make me any more of a heartless monster than it makes you (if you’re an american) personally responsible for the killings in Abu Grabe or the detonation of nukes over Hiroshima. You’re taking all this negative emotion stemming from whatever bad experience you had or heard of, and directing it towards the next hapless soul who identifies himself as a JW - be it at your door or on a message board.
Stop creating false equivalencies. Not just you, but everyone here. Take the time to recognize that your own personal feelings may not be accurately applied in every single case you apply them to. That’s what I try to do. Go ahead and show me how I’m not, and I’ll think about it and maybe learn from it.
And honestly, if you’re so bent out of shape about saturday morning visits - just get a little sign that says “No witnessing”. We’re more than respectful enough (99% of us anyway) to just move on. We’d rather spend our time talking to someone who wants to talk to us.
You’re (again, general you, not you specifically) so vehement and outspoken that everyone should stifle their preconceptions about homosexuality, or abortion, or anything else, and give the respect of a NEUTRAL reaction to individuals in those groups, if they can’t be outright supportive due to their beliefs. Try doing that yourselves towards witnesses, regardless of your opinions of their “abhorrent actions”.
You grow your faith because people who are looking find you. People who are not looking aren’t “in the market” - you’ll annoy more people than you will convert. And then you wonder why people have a poor impression of you .
In the internet era, its easy for people who are a good match for your faith to find you. People like it when you respect their own faith, their own search for meaning, their own ability to find you when they need you, AND their personal time and space. Our congregation has doubled in five years, all through people finding US. We just put on an addition, and now are wondering where we are going to seat the newcomers.
But, why does a faith need to grow?
A fair and objective answer. But it doesn’t negate my stance that Christianity rose from Judaism. It’s kind of a central theme to the faith.
I, along with most witnesses, respect the rights of others to not follow our beliefs. We simply feel a much stronger motivation to give others the opportunity to do things our way. We’re not passively waiting for people to come find us. We’ll come find you, offer it to you, and then at least you can make your choice.
Once you’ve decided that your choice is permanent, a little sign on your door would save much anger on your part, and frustration on ours.
I like the look of my front door - I like the freshly painted door. The bench, the flowers. I don’t need to junk it up with signs that say “no soliciting” or “no witnessing” Besides, once you’ve gotten that far, the baby is already awake, my nap has been disturbed, and the mood has been ruined - I have a large dog that once you step foot on the walk, will let me know you are coming long before you see a sign.
(And here is the thing I don’t get - I have a large dog…he is going nuts because you are at the door. If I try and open the door I’m opening it with one hand on his collar holding back sixty pounds of dog so you can talk to me. Any communication we have is sub optimal because of the dog. Frankly, at this point, you’d better be walking up to tell me about something I NEED to know right now that I don’t know. That doesn’t include anything about God or my soul, magazines, lottery tickets to support the football team, a new roof. He is a nice dog - he isn’t going to bite you or anything, but he is not well mannered when strangers visit and I don’t thing that just because you are rude, I should let my dog be rude.)
I guess you’re not familiar with the scope of JW’s proseletyzing? It’s worldwide, over 600 languages, and in nearly every country on earth.
Not everybody has the internet. And we grow our faith not to bolster our position or prominence, but to bolster the situation of the people to whom we speak. You don’t want it, fine. But don’t assume that it’s not benefiting the people we bring it to. People in africa, south america, india, whereever, living in poverty or without education. In this way, we’ve helped plenty of people along the same lines as the Red Cross or whomever.
Yeah, that sucks. I personally try to not do that. But I’m not everyone.
Stick the sign at the end of the walk. Or just call the Kingdom hall and ask to be put on the “Do Not Call” list.
I am not asking you to negate your stance. I’m suggesting that you don’t choose words that negate mine, and then act as if you’re the victim when people take offense to it.
In a conversation with me you chose the unqualified words of “rise above” and preemptively jumped on me for being offended. It’s very disrespectful.
And don’t think I didn’t see the dig about the Jews “killing the messiah” when he did show up. How tone deaf are you? You ask the question why people might not like the JWs- you answer your own questions when you use language like that.
Sounds more like you don’t want to have a conversation unless you’re assured the other person won’t be using phrasing, terminology, or possessing ignorance that might offend you.
Call me out on my ignorance, and let’s discuss that. But of course I’m going to present what I believe to be facts, as facts. Don’t you?
This is disingenuous - You start a thread to talk about ‘hatred of the JW’ - of which you are a member - then when someone posts exactly why they hate the ‘JW’ as a group, you immediately try to make it about you and why you are so different.
You may or may not be a “different” type of JW - perhaps you could have simply said “I’m sorry that some members of MY ORG treated you that way” - instead of all this other deflection - the same deflection you use later in this thread realted to door to door stuff.
FYI - the courts never have said that the JW specifically are ‘allowed’ to do what they do - all of those cases ar related to preventing cities from creating laws preventing all kinds of 'door to door solicitors" - yes, the JW may have brought the case - but the laws themselves are about what a city can do, not wether or not an individual homeowner has to ‘allow’ it.
Why should I have to call your org to tell you not to come to my house? I have a "no solicitors " sign up - you will ignore it saying “we’re not soliciting” - so now, I have to go get a “no witnesses” sign? do I get that at the kingdom hall for a small donation?
Finally - quit asking about “our” motivations - they are irrelevant and only serve as a way to attack without dealing with the substance of the post.
(you == you JW, not you ‘personally’ since I don’t know you, but I do know JWs)