CLee, a word (or 500). AKA - the next JayDub pile on thread

I tried to understand you CLee, I really did. At first, I thought you were just bitter. Then, I thought maybe you were a conspiracy theorist, but I don’t think that anymore. I think you’re just terribly misinformed, and you’ve taken what you heard and ran with it, developing some strong ideas and opinions that aren’t founded upon much…

The tl;dr version: Go ahead and not like Witnesses, go ahead and not like our beliefs, go ahead and attempt to convince others of your views. It’s your prerogative. Just don’t do it while standing upon nothing. There’s plenty of things for you to legitimately dislike, but to imply cause-effect relationships, to outright state completely untrue things, to create a false perception and then claim it is ours, makes you look like a bitter angry person.

Your post, here, is so full of incorrect assumptions about the perspective of other people that I can’t imagine you wrote this without a preconceived agenda or a hardcore bias that’s closing your mind to other possibilities.

Using the term “marks” implies that we’re akin to a shady salesman, and that we mark people who we feel are more likely to fall to our persuasion/coercion. It implies that A) witnesses view others as less than themselves and B) witnesses view other people only as potential converts and C) our only goal with witnessing is to convert people to our way of thinking, and that there is some benefit for ourselves in doing so.

This is wholly false, though I can see how it might appear to be that way, looking from the outside in. Our only goal with door-to-door witnessing is to “declare the good news of the kingdom of god”. If an individual wishes to know more, we expound upon that. If it appears to us that someone has a particular need (recently lost a loved one, feeling depressed and lonely, struggling with an unwanted addiction) then we will cater our presentation of “the good news of the kingdom” to how accepting God’s way of living will benefit them, or how God’s love may bring them comfort during a time of pain. This is not done with any sinister intent; we truly do not have the goal of swelling our ranks. It is satisfactory to us to simply bring Jehovah’s name to your door. If you don’t want it, that’s fine, at least you heard it.

Some individuals within the witnesses are more “zealous” than others, and will push the issue perhaps a bit too far. This rightly annoys people such as yourself, but is NOT an indication of ulterior motives.

This is awfully presumptuous. You don’t know anything about the OP’s general attitude towards non-witnesses; you only know how he reacted to this single incident, and his emotional involvement. You know the phrases - broad brush, generalization, etc. They’re not good things, and while his reaction involved a little bit of it, your responses are very cogent, thought out, comprehensive examples of broad-brush generalization with the goal of painting witnesses in an extremely negative light. Not cool.

I’m not even sure I follow your train of thought from idea > point in this area.

Are you equating the hatred you assume all witnesses share for guns to the hatred you assume all witnesses share for LGBT people? Are you then setting up that hatred as a tenet of our faith, and contrasting it AGAINST: pushing spiritual beliefs unbidden, voting, participating in political functions, etc., while suggesting that we’re jeopardizing the freedom we have by behaving in such a manner? To me it looks like a string of unrelated statements, that while individually might be true, have nothing to do with the issue at hand. That’s called a straw-man argument.

Again, you’re assuming a perspective that simply doesn’t exist. You’re saying that not only do witnesses feel that we are terminally under appreciated and persecuted, but that we enjoy being in that position. That’s also called a straw-man argument, mixed in with ad-hominem. And what’s the purpose of “we can’t win this one” - what’s the battle that you’ve given up? I didn’t see any such surrender, only lots of arguing.

It doesn’t work that way. Maybe you’ll succeed in convincing others to your point of view, that of deriding the witnesses for holding a perspective and mindset/attitude that is genuinely awful. But really…stick to the facts, not your interpretation of what they must mean about our motives.

Again, you start with a true statement about your opinion of a witness coming to your door, along with a plausible inference that others share the opinion, but then follow it up with a completely erroneous assumption peppered with disingenuous commentary that never happened. It’s an ad-hominem straw man. There’s nobody out there who would bring such a message to their neighbors, witness or otherwise. It’s absurd. Your assumption of our perception is incorrect.

We tell each other no such thing. We are nervous as hell each time we knock on a door, knowing full well that most people don’t want to hear it. It’s our moral obligation to do so, and we’ve been granted the legal right in this country, so we’re going to do it. The “service” does not cost you your privacy or peace and quiet - though the initial visit may feel that way. The cost is not exorbitant, because there’s nobody to “pay”. You either choose to live your life one way, or another way. Your way, defined by your own morals, or God’s way, according to the morals he stuck in the Bible. Again, your assumption of our perception and attitude is wholly incorrect.

We’re not Amish. We’re fully living in this world. We simply choose to not participate in the mechanisms that guide it, because we believe them to be influenced by Satan. The world is full of wonder, beauty, and love, along with terror, ugly, and hatred. Witnesses aren’t asking you to carve yourself off from the world. Again, straw-man.

Who asked you to? “Isolation” is different from “limit your association with, in order that your faith not be eroded”. Shaming one’s family members is not suggested, endorsed, or acceptable. Disfellowshipping only happens when someone accepts Jehovah’s standards, makes a vow to live by them, and then reverses course publicly. Someone who simply believes differently is not shamed, unless that individual Witness doing the “shaming” patently misunderstands the mindset of love they’re supposed to espouse.

Nor do we, and you simply won’t find any legitimate proof that Witness children suffer or perish at a rate greater than the general public. Refusal of blood products does not equal wholesale negligent slaughter. We take advantage (more than average) of modern medicine - mostly because we won’t accept blood. Doctors treating Witnesses are employing the latest technologies, and experiencing plenty of successful outcomes.

Then don’t. We don’t want to annoy anyone either, but again, we’re morally obligated to bring the message, welcome or not.

We text…WTF are you aiming at with that one? As to the rest of it, the go right ahead. As mentioned above, if you publicly declare that you intend to live your life according to God’s standards as laid out in the bible, then do so. If you don’t wish to do that, FINE - nobody’s forcing you to. But until you tell us to bugger off permanently, we’ll continue to bring a message which you apparently feel is aimed directly at you. It’s not. You’re the one comparing yourself to it, not us. You’re the one feeling judged, we don’t judge. That’s God’s job, we’re just here doing what he asked, because it’s a demonstration of our faith and love for Him.

Why on earth would you imply that we do not share this sentiment? Or that we expect you to forego what you’ve mentioned here? You are again setting up a straw-man.

This is where I thought maybe you were a conspiracy theorist. Nobody’s directing our every action or thought. And your feelings regarding political contributions are understood. Why do you refuse to accept that Witnesses hold a different view? We believe it’s throwing a whole lot of good at nothing; trying to dig out a mountain with a spoon. A mountain we believe will soon be fully removed by God himself. It’s not a personally harmful, or generally miserable mindset. Quite peaceful really.
And Jehovah’s Witnesses as a group are not shrinking. So, again, facts please.

It’s not all that bad, come one now. There are things to be avoided, however they do not induce panic or terror or cause us to live in abject fear. Your statements make it seem that they do. The “imaginary dangers and temptations that cause no mortal harm” - just like the fruit adam and eve ate, right? We believe differently, and our belief doesn’t harm you, in fact, it doesn’t even make us unpleasant people. People aren’t dying for foolish reasons, not are we denying simple cures.

No, it’s not exacting or rigid. Have you been to any Wordly prisons? Again, your assumption of our perception that the world is ugly, hate-filled, paranoid, and small, is simply incorrect.

Look CLee, you’re seriously mistaken in your reasons for disliking JW’s. Your feelings are based entirely on just that - feelings. You’re the one painting this dismal scary picture, and then claiming it’s all Witnesses can see.

Stop it.

TLDR.

Do you have something in a pamphlet form?

I said all I had to say, no sense in repeating it. I’ve only one thing to add: you have a decent grasp on language, a decent vocabulary, you express yourself well and you’ve done some research on presenting a coherent argument. It’s a shame you limit yourself and your family by adhering to JW rules. You could do so much more with that brain than alienate your brothers and sisters with your prejudices, bore them to death with your holey arguments and frustrate people on the week-end.

Cecil’s going to have to open a “Tsk, tsk” forum…

So you’re not going to address my assertion that you’re completely mistaken in your assumptions? That the JW perception of the world is NOTHING like what you’ve painted - and suggesting it to be so is … well … wrong?

/scene

The OP is just as stupid and crazy as we thought. Go away and take your idiotic cult with you.

Or even a video we could Watch, maybe from a Tower.

Nonsense herdspeak.

If you aren’t going to address even a single one of the points made, then you paint yourself as one of the crowd who stands and points, jeering at the witch up on the stake.

Yes.

Thanks, but we’re not interested. You can try the neighbors though.

I think CLee cleaned your clock in the prior thread. Being made a fool of online hardly constitutes being burned at the stake. You’re just repeating the same mock worthy bullshit you’ve been repeating the last few days. I’d ask you to stop but as that clearly does not work with JW’s IRL, one doubts it will work online.

Do you guys really not celebrate holidays?

Sigh. It is exactly as I painted it. You believe that Satan is in charge of this beautiful, amazing planet. You take advantage of every public service without contributing anything but taxes to it. You discourage higher education. You discourage blood transfusions which save lives and allow children to die needlessly. You damn unmarried teens and adults for masturbating thus setting them up for a lifetime of shame and hangups. You shame and exclude gays. You isolate members from their families and communities and shun them if they deviate from your rigid codes. Your entire system is run by elderly men. You litter that bizarre propaganda in doctor’s offices and public restrooms the world over. You disturb people and you do so repeatedly unless they track down the Kingdom Hall and demand you stop showing up every couple months.

And the worst thing you do is prey on the elderly, the infirm and shut-ins because only weak-minded and ill people will grow your base. If that isn’t true, then do it here. Sell it here, in this format. Prove your message has any worthwhile value by proffering up your pitch to a reasonable, intelligent audience.

It’s like a pathetic tag-team. “Hey, dougie, let me look stupid for a while so’s you can get a drink and eat a sandwich or something!” And then they swat each other on the ass and Uber climbs in the ring.

I think they are so accustomed to having an elder coach them that “You are doing GOOD THINGS!!!” by spreading their crazypants beliefs that they actually can’t see the pain they cause and the evil they are doing. Or maybe they are performing a public service by these discussions. Any religion that lets savable kids wither and die and drives ex members to suicide ought to be held up to public scrutiny as often as possible.

You’re doing it again.

You’re misrepresenting facts to support your incorrect assumption of our perception. You’re creating a straw-man, by insisting “facts” that aren’t true.

Why? What on Earth led you to believe such things? Have you ever seen for yourself the things you’re basing your stance on?

“You believe that Satan is in charge of this planet” - yes, we do, because the Bible says so, and we see evidence that supports it. Not the least of which is this type of adamant refusal of common decency regarding conversation from an equal footing.

“You take advantage of public services and only pay taxes in return” - ?? That’s ALL THAT IS REQUIRED! That’s how the system is set up to work! How can you imply that is a reason for our vilification?

“You litter that bizarre propaganda…” - Oh please. You assume there’s an evil intent behind it, and read it in a sinister cartoonish voice don’t you? How can you turn this into “bizarre propaganda”???

“You prey on the elderly” - again, terminology designed to paint the most negative possible picture. We’re predators, seeking a kill. :rolleyes:

Again I’ll say it: You’re creating the scary dismal picture, and then claiming it’s what we see. It’s ignorant at best, and disingenuous at worst.

What’s funny is then you go on to agree with everything she says, but with your own special attempt at spin.

You can’t say we think Satan is in charge of the world when we think Satan is in charge of the world because BIBLE!

I don’t know whose posts make the JWs look worse: CLee’s or Uber’s.

It’s a tossup between Uber’s and dougie’s. Both wonder twins have the power of stupid.