Kinda makes me wish we had a religious exchange program so American fundamentalists can go to a country where they really can experience the persecution their belief requires.
Yeah yeah, they’re called missions and JW’s do them all the time. Any pussy can go to Paraguay, that’s a vacation with a heavy dose of righteousness, how bout spreading the word to Somalia, Uganda, Rwanda or North Korea. If god loves you you have nothing to fear.
Bolding/resizing mine.
focusing only on the parts that you want to see is disingenuous. The article clearly stated that it’s not our place to judge that person.
The fact that a christian minister might have questions/concerns about giving a funeral talk for a suicide doesn’t IN ANY WAY mean that JW’s are calling suicides horrible people.
what are you getting at?
I read a lot of the posts but not all and I think the question has been covered well in this thread. I worked for a few years with a boss who was a JW. He was a kind and caring man who never tried to force his religion on me.
You wanted an honest reply so here goes. JW’s are a group of people who are enamored with their interpretation of the Bible to the extent they have built a wall between themselves and the realities of life in general. Instead of religion being a part of their lives, it is their life. They are full of themselves and their own beliefs so strongly they are willing to shun family and friends who do not participate in their belief system. They believe that only they are right and all others wrong making them outcasts of society. This is not the teaching of Jesus. I don’t hate them, but then I don’t hate anyone. There are many such cults/groups in the world. These groups will remain small for the reasons above.
That would make for a strong dose of faith alright, not sure if any JW’s are there yet. Best to play it safe and continue to pretend to be persecuted in America.
God has a hell of way of getting his message across to JW’s. That actually happened in my own hometown.
Yes. And I can say that both for myself, and as a representative of the JW organization as a whole - there’s not a single JW who would disagree with me.
That’s like saying “If you could give food to everyone in the world, would you try to?” as though the expectation that I can’t would dissuade me from trying.
Even saying that some people put family first and others put God first is a logical fallacy of the first order. It’s a false dichotomy. There’s no need to choose one over the other for any reasonable person. Toxic family? Ditch them. Awesome family? Love them. Nothing to do with God. Atheist? Ditch God. Religious? Love God. Nothing to do with family. That is, unless you belong to a religion that forces all of your public actions to be filtered through the light of correct religious behaviour, as with JWs.
One thing I haven’t mentioned is that perceived sexual misconduct is subject to public shaming. My mother was accused of fornication in front of her congregation at the age of 15, and had to defend herself. Admittedly this was in the 1950s; I’m sure things have changed. But I consider that child abuse. To publicly shame a teenager who, at least in this case, was innocent of the charges laid, in order to keep her on the straight and narrow? Not acceptable.
Then there’s the blood transfusions mentioned above. Again, I’m sure this has changed, but have you ever watched someone die of cancer who cannot have surgery because it might involve blood transfusions? Good for the universe for providing a martyr’s death, I guess, but it’s a horrible way to go. Full disclosure, this happened when I was young and I may not have been privy to / remember all the details.
It all comes down to the fact that this religion forces people to choose between their faith and being good to their own parents and children. I am especially angry right now because of this family matter; I’ll start a thread when the legal dust has settled, but lawyers are making good money undoing the damaged caused in part by greedy, stupid people (JW-ism has nothing to do with the greed, but the stupidity comes from a lifetime of not thinking critically about much of anything, and losing the ability).
One tidbit: I saw my close relatives for the first time in decades, in court. They did not recognize me. They falsely accused my mother of patricide, not knowing I was in the room. Afterwards, when I identified myself, they were sweetness and light with hugs and statements of “family is so important!” I realize that from this paragraph, the JW element is not apparent, but the family is clearly broken down into active JWs, inactive JWs, ex-/disfellowshipped JWs, and me, the lone none-of-the-above. The religion was a key element in the ability to make these accusations and not recognize close family, as well as the need to pretend love and affection in public where none is felt.
a) why would the minsiter have to have any concerns over a funeral talk if they are “not judging” - if they have concerns, then they are, in fact, judging.
b) you bolded the part you wanted people to focus on - how is it ‘disingenuous’ for someone else to do the same thing? Especially in a debate forum where its a counter point…
c) you’re clearly ignoring my response to YOUR bolded part. “We’re not going to judge you for this horrible sin” is stating that you have already judged thta it is, in fact a horrible sin.
lastly - in your last post - suddenly your a “representative of the JW organization as a whole” - earlier you “were not” - which is it? Who’s being ‘disingenuous’ now?
Everyone…
Stop screwing around with posts in quotes. It’s a solid rule not to do so and, while these cases are borderline, I don’t want anything even close to an infraction for anyone in this thread.
Because I love all my children equally, get it?
And just to respond to this, I have seen tons of evidence that being a JW results in more pain and heartache, more death [see post-1975 unnecessary death and untreated cancer death above] and grief, than NOT being a JW. In my opinion, and based on my observations, the cons outweigh the pros.
I’m not as open-minded as you. I cannot imagine any circumstances that would change my opinion.
a) The minister might have concerns because of his own lack of understanding, or perhaps because of a bias. Who the hell knows? Having concerns or questions is not judging. It’s finding out whether it’s appropriate to judge.
b) I bolded a part with the rest of the context still there. Eliminating the context, and bolding something as though it’s the only thing stated, is the wrong way to do it.
c) Your words - not mine - “We’re not going to judge you for this horrible sin” == “It is not our palce to judge wether this person has commited an unforgivable sin”. In fact, they’re OPPOSITES.
That one post, I was willing to state that my opinion is absolutely shared with every other witness you will EVER talk to. That is why I said what I did. When my opinions aren’t likely to be shared, I’m not going to act as a representative.
An honest discussion? JW beliefs are incredibly stupid and worse, potentially dangerous to innocent children. Go away and leave the rest of us alone. Is that honest enough?
And I gathered as much from just your first post. Which is why I said I was sorry for how things turned out for you, and didn’t pursue the topic much further.
You made your point, and I didn’t want to upset you further in what might have been perceived as an attempt to persuade you that your feelings weren’t valid. They are, and from what I’ve read, they SUCK.
Sounds like you’ve got a tangled web of crap to get through, and a bunch of dolts with VERY closed minds to deal with.
Thanks. I will bow out of this thread, I think, since you and I agree to vehemently if cordially disagree and it’s not particularly fun for me.
Even if Mommy says the plumber is my real Daddy?
a) determining if they should judge == they are judging
b) You still want the focus there - they did not remove the context either - simply stated that you diverted the focus.
c) as I said before - classic doublespeak - you have already stated that its a ‘horrible sin’ - judgement is already in place - saying we wont ‘judge you’ is a dodge when its already been decided.
And when you come to my door uninvited and unwanted, I have have the same legal right to tell you to “Piss off” as pleasantly or rudely as I choose. 
Uber, are you even going to attempt to show that JWs are persecuted in the US? Because if you want to have an honest discussion about JW hatred in Eastern Europe you might want to try a different board.
No. Because I said: The discussion I’d like to have, and I believe will eventually become a debate (or argument, whatever) is: why? From whence does the uneven application of outrage stem? What are the actual motivations? I’ve underlined a part I think is worthy of a bit more consideration, if you are in fact interested in having this discussion honestly.
Re-read my OP. I’m interested in understanding the motivations behind the attitudes people hold toward witnesses. I never said anything about persecution, I’m not trying to prove/disprove/justify/vilify that.
I want to know what’s going on in the minds of people who decide that JW’s are worthy of their ire/outrage/hatred. And some people replied in kind. Some others, took a different tack of discrediting JW’s entirely, or me, or the strawman they put up, or whatever.
This thread has obviously deviated from my OP. Do you have anything to contribute along the lines of the OP?
This is just another variation of “I’m sorry things happened to you”. Why can’t you say anything like “I’m sorry JWs did these things to you”?
This thread is filled with the motivations and information you’ve asked for - you ar the one that is not discussing the topic honestly. You want the problem to not be with the JW - where in fact, that is where the problem is.