Well, yes, I have a park across the street with lots of parking so it pays to keep an eye on who’s out there. Somebody spends too long sitting in his car and somebody from the block, or a police officer, knocks on his window. We have a tacit deal with the park, too: we keep an eye on their park and they let us use the parking strips.
The risk of somebody in your house doing something stupid with a loaded gun always left within easy reach and without a trigger lock, which is the only way it will be any good for you in the OP’s scenario, is far greater than the risk of an intruder, especially if you do the simple things I described. I have children and both my wife and I were not-particularly-irresponsible children at one time and we know what a kid will do if left in a house with a gun.
While Inside the Criminal Mind comes highly recommended, I haven’t yet read it, but I have read my share of other crime-related books and am currently reading a book on criminology from the turn of the last century (I haven’t gotten to the phrenology section yet ). On the other hand, I’ve known quite a few criminals–the sort that DOES break-ins–and have an insight of my own into their minds, or what passes for a mind. If they were as smart and ambitious as your worst-case criminals they’d be running driveway resurfacing scams.
The falsehood at the root of planning for the worst-case scenario is that, because of its unlikelihood and the dangers that are presented because of your preparations, being prepared for can be more dangerous than the event itself. You are a security consultant and it is your job to be paranoid. I work with security consultants* and I need to be fairly paranoid, myself. But I need to balance the dangers in my life so that one doesn’t take over.
I trust you are better at it than they are–I often wonder if they are planning their own incursions because I see unsecured sections on the floorplans. I do what I can to call people’s attention to it, but they are the ones who are supposed to be the pros.
Monster: I certainly am not going to argue the specific of California law (especially since you covered it so well). My post was simply intended to cover the terms as they are generally used. I think it is great the California is making a specific crime of home invasion. IMO, it is an extra level of viciousness that needs to be prosecuted above and beyond that of a normal burglary, be it hot or cold.
If you want some specific sites of the term:
Escondido Police Dept:
Gary Kleck studies reference them a lot, for example:
Northwest Ohio PD lists their codes for them:
From Jeff Cooper page (an author of self defense books):
After re-reading my post I realize I may have given the impression that hot burglary and cold burglary were different crimes under the law, since they usually aren’t. I apologize if this is the case, as it was not my intent. My intention was to explain the various terms as they are commonly used.
I have posttraumatic stress disorder that specifically focuses on a night intruder. I prepared for and drill for surviving the situation with the least possible damage to any human, myself == first priority.
I put maximum deterrents in the way of an intruder and my safety. Good ground security, psychological deterrents, and multiple physical barriers between myself and harm. I also offer up a decoy purse and plenty of goodies before they need approach my stairwell.
If an intruder gets past everything to my stairwell and attempts the metal gate, they will be blinded by light more powerful than a camera flash. I sincerely hope they flee at that point.
My biggest fear used to be that I’d be raped, killed, or assaulted in my home at night. Now, I wonder how I’d process having killed a human being. I KNOW I won’t be hurt in my room at night… not by a human.
I will not allow anyone to come into my home and ruin my quality of life. I’m willing to kill to defend that right. Because of the extreme psychological damage I’d suffer, I feel I have the moral right to do so.
Fortunately, I live in South Carolina. Very low tolerance for home invasion crimes, and I have carefully and heavily weighted the situation even farther in my favor.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I’m of the opinion that a well-secured home and a well-rehearsed plan of action with a determined individual approaches 100% effectiveness against occupant harm at night.
A) I am not paranoid. Just like I am not living in fear of in my neighborhood. Please refrain from making personal commentary about me, because you do not know me nearly well enough to say anything about me, and your comments are uncalled for and inaccurate. What I present here are the facts, as I have learned them over the past 15 years, about self protection, police work and when possible criminology (I am not a professional criminologist, any more than any police officer is). You may take the presentation of those facts as a paranoid obsession on my part, and by taking it as such you would be wrong. I take the acquisition of facts on this subject seriously because I think it is important to have more people out there teaching people real self protection and because I think it is important to be making decision based on reality and fact, and not on ignorance. The world of self defense is in scary shape. The crap information that is coming out of martial arts schools and so-called self defense seminars is spooky as hell.
B) As a security consultant, it was not my job to be paranoid. If this is your impression of the people you work with they are either poor at their jobs, have let their jobs get to them or your impressions are wrong or clouded. Above all a security consultant must remain clear about his analysis of any situation or area. Paranoia is not a good trait to have it that line of work.
Paranoia clouds the senses. As Gavin DeBecker puts it (paraphrased) “It creates a buzz in the mind, clouding you from any real dangers around you.”
I am not going to get into a statistical battle about the dangers of gun ownership vs. the chance of them reducing crime, or whatever. It is a pointless battle because nobody will accept anybody else stats unless it agrees with their position.
Go back a couple of pages and read my post about gun ownership. It is an individual decision, which much be weighed by the responsibilities and consequences of gun ownership vs. it places in the force continuum and its importance to cover the entire continuum.
Since you clearly believe that the responsibility and consequences are too much to bare vs. the gain, that is fine. I understand, respect and support that decision, especially if it is made with sound judgement (whether you have or not is of no concern to me). But you must also accept that you have a gap in your spectrum of self protection. You seem confortable with this. So, again, great. However, other people, who are not being paranoid, are not comfortable with that gap. They want to be able to respond appropriately to a wider range of possible events then you, even if to you them deemed them to be remote in your opinion. Again, this is not paranoia, baseless fear or anything else. It is simply a different conclusion to given facts and circumstances.
I am not going to try to teach you about proper gun ownership and how to balance safety with keeping the weapon available for use. You don’t seem like you would be interested in that, and I don’t consider it my place to tell you that you are wrong and should own a gun.
Finally, I do wish to say that it is not nearly impossible to balance these two issues if you have the inclining to recieve the proper instruction and are willing to treat the weapon with the proper level of responsibility it deserves. There is no doubt, there are too many idiots with guns (have I said that enough times in the past two years being here?). This is a problem, and I strongly feel (yes, this is just my opinion do not ask for a cite) that it is these morons that pad the statistics making guns look dangerous (should I remind you that this is one of the reasons I take the acquisition of fact on this subject seriously? I.e. my intent is to reduce the number of morons with guns through education).
I apologize for the numerous typos in the previous post. It is very late at night. I hope that reading will make some sense. If any clarification is need post away.
In an attempt to answer the OP (and maybe inject some humor here):
Hear an intruder.
Wake Mrs Chance. Grab bat.
Stand poised. Flex.
Phone works? Call Cops.
Whisper at dogs. (2 80 pound Greyhounds) “Hey dogs? Want something to eat?”
Loose hounds. Hounds run at full speed down stairs and all over first floor, confusing intruder. They won’t hurt him (they’re trained properly) but they will increase his chaos factor.
Intruder doesn’t flee? Apply bat to intruder if possible. Repeatedly.
Wait for cops to show up.
Have this dialoque with cops:
Me: “Wait wait! It’s over. He’s on the floor there!”
Cop: “ID please”
Me: “Here”
Cop: “Wow, you sure fucked him up.”
Me: “Yep, I guess so.”
Cop: “Sure is bleedin’”
Me: “Yep, sure is.”
<long pregnant pause>
Cop: “So, um, you want us to arrest him or do you want to finish him off?”
I swear, I love living out here. We got our priorities straight.
To put it bluntly:
I, Jonathan Chance of the SDMB, hereby reserve the right to frighten, confuse, bruise, wound, maim, or kill anyone who in any way threatens my home or family. Not only do I deserve that right, but I also reserve the right to apply the coup de grace to a wounded intruder as I see fit.
Really, the more anarchistic side of me considers finishing off an intruder to be a public service. After all, if he gets off he could menace my neighbors at some point in the future.
Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to finishing off a wounded intruder. If the dude happened to be killed by me shooting him, stabbing him, clubbing him, or side-kicking his neck, well, tough shit for him. He shouldn’t have been in my house.
However, if I only hurt the intruder, I might call the cops and tell them that the intruder is injured, and that no one is in immediate danger. Maybe the cops might take a little longer to get there…
I couldn’t imagine trying to defend my home without having a gun available. Sure, alarms and such make good deterrents, but what do you do if he decides to keep going for it? Let your dogs loose on him? What if he has a weapon, do you think he will have any qualms about killing a dog? What do you do then if the intruder decides that it’s better not to leave any witnesses? Are you going to fight them off with a knife? Properly using a knife in a fight is a lot harder than learning to shoot a gun at someone, and is lot more dangerous to you. Why give someone any kind of fairness or advantage over you?
Anyways…enough of my rant. If I see someone in my house, I pick up the glock or beretta and shoot until they’re dead.
…under the assumption that someone doesn’t really want a gun, but feels they might need one, then most experts would suggest a gun only under certain circumstances. They would wonder if there were children in the home (ie, can you afford to flea?). Even having a phone, or an apartment, and computing the quality of police service in your area matters in the equation. Also, who comes over to your house matters, what kind of business are they in? Notice how many of these factors conflict. Having poor police service means that you could easily justify a gun to yourself, but that you more likely to have it stolen. Having children implies that you could justify a gun by not being able to flea, but the same gun poses a threat to them as well.
Accordingy, all experts I have read on the subject (3 out of 3) recommend a police-style pump-action shotgun, ready to be quickly loaded with Duck and Pheasant load, hidden in your bedroom. This is for many reasons, including accuracy, and the fact it is easy to load quickly and offers greater firepower and fire control without endangering the neighbors from stray bullets, which can go through apartment and house walls (you will probably be sued regardless).
Now, many people think shotguns are overkill. Nothing could be further from the truth since the sight and sound of one being loaded is frightening. Also, if one learns to be tough with it, the shotgun is a handy device to wield even when empty (which no one is the wiser, unlike revolvers).
What about kids? Well, this is like sex education. Do you want them blissfully ignornant and free to get pregnant or catch a disease? Likewise, they must be aware there is a gun in the house and what it can do. This familiarity is advised by experts, who suggest that curiosity is the killer in most cases.
Also, there is the case in which some people may be embarrassed to own a shotgun, but can easily see themselves hiding a little gun indefinitely. IMO, this would be the first fear to overcome. If you are afraid of being associated with a large and relatively safe and boring weapon, then you are not emotionally capable of controlling the majority of events in an emergency and should seek alternatives.
Note: A shotgun is relatively inexpensive and if stolen is not a massive threat to society.
Brian, out of curiousity, who are the experts you read?
Massad Ayoob has the following to say about shotguns (I will be simplfying, if you want all the details go get the freaking book, I have seen it in many librarys and only costs $8 anyway)
Disadvantages:
The shotgun is the victim of several myths, including:
a) Devasting firepower (true, but with caveats)
b) Not having to aim it (not true)
c) Simple to use (not true)
d) Criminals are scared of them (true but with caveats)
e) Birdshot will wound and not kill the criminal (not true at self defense ranges)
The shotgun is a two handed weapon. This raises some serious practically issues.
Shotguns are awkward to maneuver. Again, raises practically issues with regards to searching your house with it.
It is easier to disarm a person with a shotgun than a handgun.
Advantages:
Cheaper.
Often easier to obtain than a handgun.
It does have awesome single shot firepower.
The book contains 11 pages on the shotgun, covering these issues. If you want the details go and read it.
Most of the best self protection camps/courses (LFI and RMCAT, for example) I know of focus on the handgun over the shotgun for similar reasons.
I am not saying the experts you read are wrong, but I would like to know their material so I can check it out.
The experts I read were all in various magazines over the years covering the topic of home defense, and their assumptions from the question undoubtedly assumed some unfamiliarity and training with guns, and perhaps children. I notice that most gun articles today are still hell-bent on nuts and bolts and not enough legal and liability issues. How does one store a loaded handgun in a nightstand for instant use with young children about? Tricky dilemma of protecting versus harming. Gun writers commonly ignore these issues because they don’t want to look soft on guns.
Here are some links that came up from searching “shotguns, home defense.” I think a 20 gauge is controllable by almost anyone compared to a large handgun, but that is my opinion. Also, the stuff I just read emphasized never to self-search a house and I think this is where handguns are favored. The shotgun assumption seems to be a best-as-only weapon in esconced home defense. I noticed a few writers still insist that a shotgun can go through a single “piece of sheetrock” (implying walls) but didn’t once say that it can go through ten less walls than a rifle with infinitely less ricochet.
I know next to nothing about guns, but I’ve wondered this for a while…If there was no other choice than to try and physically stop the guy and he has a gun, could a person grab the gun (barrel? The tubey part…heh) and hold onto it while it shoots? Like while trying to wrestle it away from the guy and it goes off, would some sort of impact/heat damage your hand? I’m assuming not, but it seems like if it’s got a mini explosion in it with a bullet zooming through it, it would do SOMETHING to someone holding onto it…
Tsugumo (sorry, but I figured this would be a good place to ask, heh)
The John Wayne approach???
Not many of us are trained in hand to hand combat. There are ways to disarm a person which is what you are talking about. Probably not a good idea if you do not have the training.
Tsugumo: strictly in the interest of fighting ignorance, I’ll offer some advice.
1. Stop watching movies. Grabbing a gun out of someone’s hand is best accomplished when you have the scriptwriter on your side.
2. If you can get close enough to an antagonist to grab the firearm in their hands, odds are they were never going to shoot in the first place.
3. This is what anti-gun folks are talking about when they claim that most gun-owners are hurt with their own firearms. Like most successful lies, there is an underlying element of truth to it, in that:
4. If you are not mentally prepared to use the firearm to defend yourself (should the need arise), it is more dangerous to you than it is to any home intruder. Know the consequences of your actions. Dead bodies, blood everywhere and police at the minimum; reporters, attorneys and the inside of a courtroom are also possibilities. Maybe even the inside of a jail cell for a good, long time.
5. Should you have to discharge a firearm to defend yourself in your own home [action], several things are going to happen [consequence]:
5a. You are probably blinded by muzzle flash; 5b. You are probably deafened by the blast; 5c. You most likely missed; 5d. You have alerted the intruder that you have a firearm, and are willing to kill him. The situation has now escalated, and your scared intruder may not act rationally and surrender or run away. He may attack instead.
6. Actually holding onto the barrel of a weapon during discharge, while not recommended, probalby poses no immediate risk, providing no part of your hand occludes the muzzle. But some weapons have modifications to reduce recoil that vents hot gasses to the sides and up; if your hand should happen to be covering or near these, be prepared for a serious ouchie.
Check out the books being cited, its good stuff, extremely relevant, and covers the legal issues as well as the nuts and bolts.
Many gun experts (mr ayoob included) preach heavily for “quick release” handgun safes. If I had small children around I would make this investment.
Get a 12 unless you are of very small stature you can handle it and you will have a much wider variety of weapons to choose from. Even a 20 gauge shotgun is a hell of a lot more terrifying to shoot than say a 9mm handgun.
Going hunting for people is best left to those who do it for a living and have the tools and training for it (like SWAT teams) despite my training I would never do this.
I saw above you making reference to using duck loads. This terrified me. Duck loads are supposed to knock down ducks flying 500+ feet up, they use heavy shot (4-6 I believe) and heavy powder charges. These things will go through walls like a lightsaber through butter. Shotgun slugs are even worse in that respect and would easily penetrate like a rifle round. The low penetration rounds that everyone talking about are glaser safety slugs (and their ilk), which are slugs made of compressed #12 shot. They shatter when they impact on just about anything, greatly reducing their penetration, but I still wouldnt want to be on the other side of a wall where one hit.
**
[/QUOTE]
Thankyou. That’s all I was asking. I knew I should have thrown in a disclaimer type thing but I didn’t want to end up taking up more space than I already had with a hijack. I know it’s a movie thing, and I know that if there’s any other choice I should take it, but should the situation present itself, I’d like to know if I’m going to have my hand fried or if I can point the barrel off to the side quickly so I don’t get a bullet in my gut. I’m not talking about kicking the gun out of their hand, catching it, then using it on them. I’m talking about if I walk into the room and see someone aiming a gun at a loved one, and I’m close enough that I can get control of the gun with one hand before beating them silly with the other. Or I could just swing wildly at them or try to tackle them and have them fire off bullets in random directions possibly killing myself or the people around me.
And I do some martial arts, so I have some training and I’m relatively fast/coordinated, which is why I’m not going to run around trying it unless it looks like a 100% chance, obviously.
Anyway, I just wanted to know if it would damage my hand (making it unusable to follow up with) if it happened.
Thanks for the answer!
Tsugumo (who won’t forget the “I’m not a complete dumbass” disclaimer next time, heh)
in the past year I have woken up twice to hear something outside the bedroom.
disclaimer I work at night and sleep all day.
Case One: Put on glasses… walked into other room… and chased away a squirrel. Closed balcony door and chastised wife when she got home.
Case Two: Put on glasses… walked into other room… and asked man with tool belt what the fuck he was doing. Then let him go perform repairs that I forgot I had asked for.
I live on the 12th floor of an apartment building just to make it difficult for people to get in. I also never lock my balcony door… so anyone who feels like climbing up the side of my building can take whatever he wants.
(which ain’t entirely theoretical. 18 months ago in my city a man was arrested doing just that.)
Tank is right, but assuming you had no choice in the matter, if the shooter is right-handed, make a play for the right side of the shooter when he looks away, keeping your eyes on the gun. From this side, he can’t easily aim at your rush, with his arm extended, without backing up (which is your plan B–to trip him backwards). Anyway, assuming he merely stands relatively still, grab his wrist in the strongest way with your right hand and pop him in the face with your left (to buy another second) then get behind the gun, and stay in motion clockwise, placing his arm under your left armpit, and then use the back of your head to pop his face again, and then trip him down sideways left using your body and feet while torqueing his arm upwards, falling together, dislocating his shoulder like a drumstick, leaving the gun pointed in the air and his face down. This should allow you to suddenly wrench the gun sideways from his hand if he is still holding it. Doesn’t matter if he fires it, you are behind it, but take care of bystanders. Toss it far away, making him decide what to do next. I call this the LISA maneuver, for L(ife) I(s) S(hort) A(nyway). Good luck and let me know if it ever works.
). On the other hand, I’ve known quite a few criminals–the sort that DOES break-ins–and have an insight of my own into their minds, or what passes for a mind. If they were as smart and ambitious as your worst-case criminals they’d be running driveway resurfacing scams.