I’m not posting this thread as any defense of any Republicans caught in any illegal or unethical acts. Nor do I want to deny anyone their day of gleeful gloating, if that’s what they wish to do. Have at it if you want - it is certainly your right, and you folks haven’t had a satisfying few years.
However, a survey of recent history ought to show both parties that a reliance on someone else’s scandals isn’t enough. I think we can all agree that Watergate made this stuff look penny ante by comparison. Yet it caused only a hiccup in long term Republican party building, and didn’t seem to arrest the long term Democratic slide too much at all.
Likewise, Bill Clinton’s behavior didn’t seem to stop any of you from voting Democratic, did it?
Twenty years from now, either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party will be dominant. However this turns out, it won’t be because Scooter Libby got indicted today. It will be because of electoral victories decided on areas of policy.
Like I said, this is not a defense of anyone. I just want to point out that you won’t win just by looking for Scooter Libbys, any more than we can win by looking for stained blue dresses.
Recent threads here, and debates in the broader Democratic Party, show me a party deeply divided. You cannot agree on coherent economic, social, foreign, and military policies. About the only thing that unites you is your hatred for Bush and loathing of Republicans, which explains your eager anticipation of Fitzmas and your disappointment that the evil Rove has escaped so far.
It shouldn’t need to be pointed out that it isn’t enough. But I’ll point that out anyway.
I think both parties are deeply divided just now. In my opinion, this is because they do not have established values that remain consistent at their core, and as such, people are forced to make an increasingly difficult aesthetic choice about who or what to support.
Hmm. So you don’t think that support for Bush in 2000 was significantly dependent on the Lewinsky scandal? Bush himself certainly played it that way:
You’re certainly right that negativity and scandal-mongering aren’t a substitute for constructive engagement with the issues. But I do think it’s rather hypocritical for Republicans to tut-tut at Democrats for this now, after making so much political hay themselves with negativity and scandal-mongering every chance they got.
Both parties pay lip service to various “values”. I plan on enjoying a bit of gloating, and my “fun” will increase if more people get indicted. So far, DeLay and Libby (for different things). Rove still under “review”. Cheny maybe. Bloch maybe. But both parties are divided, not just the Dems - re the Miers barfight within the Republican party. If pressed for a truthful opinion, I’d say both parties bite it.
It isn’t about what Scooter said to a grand jury. It’s about making up shit to justify a war. 2000+ American troops are dead because of it, we’ve established ourselves as a torture regime, world terrorism has been encouraged because of it, and our ability to provide leadership to anyone else is long gone. That’s what’s at stake here. That’s what we have to face. That’s what we’re dealing with. If only it were about a blue dress, if only.
I don’t know whether to be surprised at the OP’s repeated use of false equivalence, or shocked at his inability to see what’s at stake here, or ashamed that so many of my fellow citizens can still be rationalizing so pathetically.
The only people who thought Clinton’s “behavior” was a problem were the right-wing partisans who were desperately seeking something to hang him with. For the rest of the populace (and the world), it was no big deal. Hell, if all it took to ensure eight years of peace, prosperity, and international goodwill was making sure the POTUS got his whistle tooted from time to time, I’d gladly chip in a few bucks for the effort.
It’s one of the fundamental drawbacks of building a party that truly tries to appeal to everyone, instead of advocating sheep-like dittoheaded groupthink. C’est la vie.
I don’t think anyone would have any beef with the Bush Administration if it was actually (a) competent and (b) looking out for the best interests of the nation. As it is, people are pissed because they see the White House as being run by a bunch of clueless greedheads who only care about making themselves and their croneys rich. An intolerance for incompetence is not a partisan position.
And finally, for those frustrated with the current level of divisiveness in Washington, let’s remember where it comes from:
Sure. And Democrats made hay over Watergate at the time, leading in no small part to the Jimmy Carter presidency. That’s just politics, for lack of a better word.
All I’m saying is that long term party building can’t rest on this. Issues and values are pretty firm things to build coalitions on. Scandals aren’t.
Was Watergate an enduring issue by 1980, or had other matters intruded upon the minds of most Americans?
I agree with you that scandalmongering isn’t enough. I agree with you that the party is divided right now. As you know, I’ve been trying to brainstorm on these issues.
But I don’t agree that this is less important that Watergate. Granted, I wasn’t involved in politics in the seventies, but a scandal that involves lying to the public about why to go to war is bigger, in my mind, than a scandal involving breaking into the opposing party’s headquarters. Neither is trivial, but the former one resulted in a tremendous loss of life.
That can be debated, the scope of the scandals. However, no matter how big it is, it will not kill the party.
Eventually the ideas will be championed by people untainted by the current decisions, and life will move on.
Hell, the Democrats weren’t killed by the Gulf of Tonkin incident, were they? And if we want to use lies and a body count as the yardstick here, that’s a long one.
My overall point is that the Democrats ought to worry about policy as well as scandal. I think they’ve been neglecting this side of the house, in large part because anything actually on paper alienates a part of their coalition.
Quite frankly, a Republican saying let’s not dwell on political scandals would look a lot more principled if Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy were being investigated rather than fellow Republicans. As for scandalmongering, history has shown it’s no longer enough to build up your own guy; you have to tear the other guy down. The OP just sounds like another case of “he hit me back!”
I’m sure you find that story very comforting. The fact is, Democrats are working on issues. Do they need to work harder on them? Absolutely. Do they need to quit carping so much about Republicans? Definitely. Do they need to move to the right on issues? Not so much.
Daniel
To the Democrats out there. While I am temporarily on your side, let me ask you to please refrain from framing this debate in partisan terms. What happened here transcends partisanship. Let’s all have a sense of community, and hate bush together, democrats, republicans and independents alike. There is no reason to submerge this in partisan rhetoric, it’s straight up wrong, regardless of which party was involved. This administration has got to answer for what it did.
I think what this administration has done includes things worse than Watergate, but in reelecting Bush et al last year we collectively entered into collusion and ratified at least a good portion of that behavior.
I would not sob into my hanky if the entire administration got impeached, indicted, and convicted, but it wouldn’t fix much, and yeah, the goddam Democrats need to find amongst themselves a goddam leader.
Hell, I don’t care one bit. You can dwell on them all you want to. Knock yourself out. And honestly, I plead guilty to satisfying this same impulse myself, especially with these boards as my outlet.
But if you think that this will magically lead to a Democratic resurgence all on its own, you’re frankly kidding yourself.
Nice try, Senor Moto. I know you don’t want the Dems to make political hay out of the current situation, but come on… fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly.
You left out perjury and obstruction of justice from Clinton’s “rap sheet” (coincidentally, the same things for which he was impeached, and for which Scooter has been charged with).