Naw, that was not aimed at you. I do actually read your stuff, matt, and I know that you don’t own a car and you take the metro. Admirable, I say. I used to take the bus to work as often as was possible as well. I’d do it now if it were possible. Unfortunately, it’s not.
That little jibe was aimed more at the other people who say that their car is fine, but that evil SUV is not. It was an attempt to put a perspective on things. Perhaps it was poor, but debating isn’t usually one of my strong points. Taking orders and giving instructions is more my speed.
Do you know why spaces are set aside for compact cars only? The reason is because people who are in compact cars won’t be able to see around your bloated, swollen SUV that looks like a malignant Buick. Let’s say your Ford Valdez is parked to the left of my little Mazda. If I’m pulling out, and another vehicle is approaching from my left, I won’t be able to see that vehicle until it’s too late. Why? Because your selfish American butt just HAD to have a big, tall SUV.
To squeeze more people into a given area of parking lot? To warn people who drive normal-sized cars that the owners of that particular lot decided that they don’t give a damn about their customers and only want to get as many people into the store as possible?
You don’t think it’s due to anything altruistic or noble, do ya?
Then back out slower. Ooh, my bloated Ford just cost you and your Mazda Penisenvy a whole thirty seconds.
This “typical American” says that you can blow me.
The problem with the “most people don’t need” SUVs argument is that no one, not mswas or anyone else, is capable of determining what someone else’s needs are. You don’t know just from looking at a guy who seems to be an office worker commuting solo in his SUV that he doesn’t use the towing capacity of the thing on weekends, or the hauling capacity every night,when his band plays, or that he doesn’t have a neat sideline helping friends and friends of friends move house. Maybe he’s part of a DIY collective in his neighborhood and routinely has lumber and tools and two gallon buckets of paint and drywall mud to haul around. You simply have no idea.
Over and over, the anti-suv crowd has been guilty of this argument, which requires snap judgments made without anything approaching sufficient information, generalizations about a huge group of people based on those judgments, and all too often includes use of those generalizations to insult people because they have made a completely legitimate, legal, personally appropriate choice that is different from one that the anti-suv contingent would make.
Am I the only one who sees the detachment of logic and common courtesy from that position?
SUVs cause massive pollution, you say. And I point out that busses do too, as do trucks and vans and cars. Unless you know the personal driving habits of a particular SUV owner, you can only accuse them of being a part of the overall creation of all vehicular emissions pollution, not of being any particular type of “super polluter.”
And matt_mcl, it’s super terrific awesome that you take the Metro everywhere and you’ve made the “ethical” decision not to own a vehicle. But you’re a single man who lives in an urban center, which means you have the flexibility to do that without enduring a great deal of hardship. For a large number of people, it is physically impossible to use mass transit to commute, to travel to the places where they need to go, or run necessary errands – either because they have large families, or do not live in urban centers or happen to not need to go to the places where mass transit can take them. Perhaps their schedules are too tight to endure the added time involved in using mass transit. (It’s horribly inefficient, in that regard.) Perhaps they have handicaps which make it difficult for them to walk to and from transit stops, or stand on overcrowded trains and busses. Simple fact is, it isn’t the panacea that you would like to claim. You want to get most Canadians off the road, but that’s simply impossible, because clearly, those who can use mass transit do.
If your response to that is that people need to change their lifestyles, that’s the point in which I will echo SPOOFE’s latest comment, but I’ll wait and see if you’re bold enough to try that.
Hmmm…I’ve imagine that Jeffrey Dahmer and Idi Amin were/are both opposed to SUVs.
So tell ya what mswas: If you anti-SUV types would just stop luring young boys up to your rooms, murdering them and chopping them up for stew, that would be nice.
Driving into flooded areas is a dangerous practice no matter what kind of car you drive. Unless you’re in a hummer that’s equipped for this sort of thing, you’re not gaining a significant advantage driving a SUV instead of a car. The real concern with driving into flooded areas is not the car stalling, but the car getting washed away or the road that was there before the flood has gotten washed away and there is 5 feet of water instead of the foot that should be there if the road still was.
Personally, I think people should drive what they want. There are trade offs to every vehicle. I have a truck. It doesn’t ride as well as a car, it gets worse fuel economy, but I don’t don’t have problems getting stuff home for home repairs. I would have never fit a sheet of plywood into my car or figured out how to haul a cubic yard of topsoil. I sacraficed some advantages of a car for the advantages of a truck.
I’m just waiting for the day that gas prices get so high that enough people can’t afford to drive them any more. <sigh>
In my personal experience, I have noticed that a larger portion of SUVs seem to be driven by unusually agressive drivers. Most of which feel compelled to tailgate me in the slow lane for some reason. I’ve just taken to flashing my break lights to get them to back off. Most of the time it works.
One day I’m going to have to really stop though, and I’m going to get my ass rolled over.
Smaller cars, like motorcycle riders, need to be more defensive in their driving to get around – especially in this city. I do think that also means they’re more likely to be considerate of the other vehicles on the road. (Not like I have much choice, anyway.) Perhaps someone should consider making a seperate driving test and class of vehicle for SUVs (like motorcycles) just to make sure the people driving them actually know how to handle the things and operate them safely.
Hmmm. I guess you’re not at Dairy Queen anymore. Congratulations! Why didn’t you tell me?
Nyahh, you don’t get to complain. You’re vile hydroelectricity back up the waterways, and destroys all that envrionment, turned into lake destroying the fragile woodland ecosystem, and then what about all the migratory fish getting chewed up in the turbines?
I weep just thinking about it. Every time you turn on a light, you kill a trout, you know? How do you live with yourself.
I on the other hand put heat in the ground during summer when I air condition. And I take it out in the winter when I heat. I live in perfect balance and harmony with my environment.
I recall seeing at least one thread regarding potential legislation to remove compact parking due to the abundance of inconsiderate SUV drivers. Might have been lost when the board was restored, though.
Just to add my .02 to the whole mess, since I’ve notices a couple posters talking in hypotheticals and what if’s…
I wonder what would happen if we had ‘SUV - Truck Parking’ instead of ‘Compact Parking’?
My theory? ::well gosh, thanks for askin’::
We’d have a bunch of compact car drivers parking in those spaces because “they liked the extra room” and this would be a rant about those inconsiderate assholes instead. :smack:
Anyhoo… There will come a day when Mr. Sylver and I will have little Sylvers running around and we’ve already agreed to buy an SUV when the time comes because I refuse to own a mini-van. I’ve gotten into two minor accidents, one with my grand am, and one with Mr. Sylvers F150, and both involving minivans. Neither was my fault, I might add. The front end of the minivan that rear-ended me was shoved into the front seat practically. The engine block was pushed towards the cab 8 inches. The driver was doing 35 mph when she hit me. My grand am suffered a bent re-bar in the bumber, some minor paint scratches, and one of the cells in the battery cracked. All told, $1000 in damages. The minivan was sold for parts. In february a minivan pulled out in front of me and I wiped out his front end entirely. Gone. Completely. In pieces on the road. I had just pulled out into the intersection and he failed to yield. I was doing all of 15 mph, and he was doing 25 mph. The damage to my truck was minimal, bent tie-rod, the front fender was buckled and my bug shield was cracked. It was still driveable though. The minivan was totaled by the insurance company.
I live in Montana, the winter’s here suck. Not that an SUV would necessarily handle driving conditions better or worse than a car would, I simply would feel a lot better about the outcome of a possible wreck. My need is simply that of safety. There is no argument in this world that would make me place the safety of my family second.
False. Completely false. I know plenty of people who can use mass transit, but don’t. And it’s not because they have some deep-seated objection to it - it’s just that they have grown up anticipating driving, they began to drive, they expected to drive, they continued to drive. It’s just the pattern we get in in a society where transportation = driving.
Until a few years ago, my parents drove to work all the time. Now they’ve stopped - my dad rides his bike or takes the metro, my mom actually walks a mile to the second-closest metro station so she can get some exercise. They had no real reason not to take transit - it just didn’t occur to them. I persuaded them to try it, and now they have altered their behaviour patterns. They still own a car (my mother is a doctor, my dad is a journalist) - it’s just that they have reduced their dependence on it substantially on a day-to-day basis. It can be done, and there are a lot of people who are not doing it for no real reason.
I am. I do think people should burn less fossil fuels. I think that people should use more concern for others and less concern for their own convenience when deciding how they will transport themselves. It drives me bananas to see single-occupancy vehicles clogging the city streets at rush hour. I am well aware that there are people for whom a private car is the only practical option at times, but almost anyone can reduce their dependency on cars, especially people living in a city like Montreal.
And let me tell you how fond I am of the facetious little tu quoque argument that says that since I’m not living off-grid in a shack organically growing compost, that I have no business complaining. I have reduced my consumption a great deal, and I’m sick of hearing people mock me for making some effort in order to justify their making little effort. Mentioning no names, but it does happen, and it’s irritating and ludicrous.
As for your invitation, I must decline, as my heart belongs to another. But if it’s a pressing need, I can recommend several saunas and bathhouses that are readily accessible by metro.
Again all the fuss about SUV’s? Gimmee a frigging break. I have a Grand Prix and my hubby has a Suburban.
Thom drives the 'burban to work and hunt and camp and fish and golf and haul all the needed equipment and passengers including anywhere from 1-4 dogs.
I have used the 'burban to haul everything from groceries, to mulch to furniture to 5-6 little league players or dance class partners with ease and in comfort. If I need to drive the dogs anywhere they go in the burban. We use it if we are going to an event and taking a lot of people. It is an extremely sturdy and useful vehicle. We have even slept in it on occasion.
I have had many instances of people giving me crap and treating me like I just killed their grandma just because I am driving on the interstate. I once had a woman who was tailgating and cursing me and giving me so much road rage that I took the next exit. She followed me off to tell me “I get pissed every time I see anyone driving those SUV’s that I just want to smack their smug faces. You guys think you can drive those things any damn place you please”
I don’t park my SUV in the compact spaces. Don’t lump all SUV drivers in with the inconsiderate ones.
BTW if my asthma acts up it is usually because I haven’t been keeping up on my inhalers and peak flows and such. An inconsiderate smoker or someone wearing too much perfume is a much greater hazard to me.
I seem to notice that an inordinate number of Honda Civics with tinted windows, aftermarket coffee-can tailpipes, aftermarket spoilers, and Pissing Calvin stickers are driven by agressive assholes. Oh, but ricers aren’t as evil or dangerous as SUV soccer moms.
I also see a lot of Darwin Award candidates on crotch rockets slipping between SUVs and ignoring the white lines painted on the road that delineate…what are those called?..Oh yeah, lanes, but since they’re on a motorcycle, they don’t have to deal with lanes, or ride single file.
Jin, don’t try to compare SUV drivers to drivers of smaller cars or motorcycles. Assholes drive all variety of vehicle. I spend probably 40% of my life on the road, and I trust the Escalade no more than I trust the Sebring no more than I trust the New Beetle no more than I trust the Mac Truck no more than I trust the moron on the Ninja wearing nothing but a pair of shorts.
Grow the fuck up, all of you. Just because you see the SUV with only one person in it doesn’t mean that it isn’t filled with rocks in the back. Or that everyone in the carpool had an emergency and backed out that day. “But, geewhillickers, if it don’t have 18 people in it, they’re wasting resources that could go to the bus where some drunk could puke on my pants!”
And, Matt, (Ohmigod I’m gonna burn for this one), don’t play Jesus until you can take the nails through your hands. I too, attempt to work within my environment to make a difference. But it’s awfully handy for you to talk about public transportation in a major city while many of the rest of us couldn’t get to the grocery store in less than an hour.
I guess, if I must make a point while I’m drunk, the point is:
Worry about your own goddamned ass. And if you’re going to climb on my goddamned ass, you’d best kiss it first.
Matt, I believe you are a very intelligent, educated man.
However, you may not realize that many SUVs are LEV - Low Emmision Vehicles.
You concerns would be far better placed if you bitched about that 1992 Toyota idling on the freeway that doesn’t come close to the strict emission controls that the 2002 Ford Expedition (and the like) have. Hell, I have no cite for this but I wouldn’t be suprised in the slightest if a moped puts out more pollution than a newer SUV.
For those playing at home, what this means is that there are plenty of people for whom, even living as they do now, using their car less would not be a hardship. All it takes is a change of default, expected behaviour patterns. That’s what I’m working for.
It’s sad but true - there are a lot of cities that are put together for the automobile, in such a way that not having one is a hardship. But there are an awful lot of places too where the alternatives exist - it’s just a matter of knowing that they’re there and acting in accordance, which a very large number of people simply fail to do.
The point is: cars are all right when necessary; the problem is that a lot of people think they’re necessary when all they are is usual.
As I said to tlw, if that’s what you’re into, there are many places I can recommend for that. I mean, as tempting as it is.
Except that I’ve had much experience with SUVs tailgating me with their brights on, and this experience is confirmed by many people.
So do you have experience with anti-SUV people murdering and stewing people that you share in common with many other people? Or maybe this is just another one of those irrational arguments you’ve been putting forward so that we will all respect the might of your Explorer/Expedition/Cherokee/Aztek/Navigator/Penis Extension*
*(Directed only at Fenris due to his dire need to justify himself above and beyond anyone else in the thread.)
And that anecdotal response is meant to convince me, right?
And we pattern our lives accordingly. That’s our right, and our business. Instead of being self-righteous about people’s lifestyles, why not do something that will help everyone, like worry about why governments are not demanding lower-emission vehicles and cleaner burning fuels? Governments have that power, they can make industry comply.
That’s just nonsense. First and foremost, because convenience is hardly a part of the equation for the great majority of people. What you’re falling into the same trap of the anti-suvers who claim “He doesn’t need that big vehicle!” You’re trying to proclaim “You don’t need to drive, you could use public transport!” when in most cases it’s just not true, and even in the cases in which it might be, you are not availed of enough knowledge about anyone else’s life to make that kind of proclamation about them. Period.
Living in a city like Montreal. It’s a very small portion of the world that lives in a city like Montreal or NYC where walking to a store is possible, where there isn’t a neighborhood not served by some kind of reasonably accessible transport. And as bananas as you’re driven looking at those single-occupancy vehicles, you don’t know where they’re coming from, where they’re going, who might be getting in, who has gotten out, you’re just making more assumptions.
Stop.
I don’t see a single poster in this thread saying anything about you living off the grid. I don’t see anyone being self-righteous about your lack of doing more. In fact, you are the only one who has slagged on anyone for your perception of what they have or haven’t done to improve the environment. Pot, this is kettle. You’re black, and presumptuous. Bad combo, babe. Doesn’t look good on you.
My statement is anecdotal?! At least my statement is based on people I know personally! You just blandly stated, “People who can take public transit, do.” No references. No supporting examples. Just a bald assertion. I mean, at least my statement has some grounding.
What makes you think I don’t do that too? I have run for a national election twice on this platform. That’s a pretty ostentatious way of demanding government do something. I have participated with a number of groups to demand concrete action in expanding public transit and reducing automobile dependency. (As an aside, that’s because the harmful effects of automobile traffic aren’t limited to pollution - there’s also the money wasted on automobile infrastructure, space, noise, urban decay, urban sprawl, economic harm due to traffic jams, etc.)
Do you think I live in a box? Do you think I don’t know anyone else, that I can’t say anything about their situation? I, personally, know plenty of people who could not drive, or at least drive places they could take transit, but do not. You, by way of contrast, haven’t offered anything but bald assertions.
Because every single one of those single-occupancy vehicles is on its way to pick up three hundred pounds of groceries and a disabled grandmother and deliver it fifty kilometres away to the South Shore. I’m so sure.
And in case you missed it, there are still a generous number of millions of people who live in such cities who continue to use cars unnecessarily. If this weren’t true, ridership for public transit in Montreal wouldn’t have been increasing for the last few years, especially where you consider that it’s become more difficult to find a house downtown, not less. From where I’m sitting, that means that a substantial chunk of people are deciding that they can use transit now, when they previously were disinclined to do so. That’s a good trend that ought to continue.
I didn’t say I got this response in the thread, just that I’ve got it before, and I’m tired of it.
Slagging on someone is the following: “You, personally, are an asshole for not reducing your emissions.” Where do you get that out of what I’ve said? I’ve certainly said that I’m upset that a lot of people drive cars unnecessarily. But I understand about default behaviour patterns. I understand it’s difficult to look for something you don’t know exists. That’s not something I blame on drivers. That’s why I do advocacy work both broadbased and person-to-person, because change comes gradually. I don’t see where you’re getting slagging on people from this.
Interesting counter-data point: In carparks here in San Juan, it is not uncommon to have a block of parking spaces reserved specifically for larger SUVs . Seems there was a problem with these vehicles not being able to extricate themselves easily from points in the far corners of the facility once the lots were filled (clearance issues, likely – and yes, it’s a question of the operator or the designer of the parking lot having made a choice for packing us tightly).
An appropriate use of the “compact only” parking spaces is at potential traffic choke-points in the parking lot, where more wiggle room may be desirable. OTOH, if the SUV in question actually occupies a smaller footprint than a midsize sedan, then I’d think that it would stand to logic that it qualifies as a compact.
Well, this is a fun read! If I had to go more than a few weeks without being SUV-bashed, my heart would just break!
In SoCal, we have spaces reserved for both large and small vehicles. I don’t ever park my SUV in a compact spot, because I don’t want you to door-ding my 2002 Land Rover with your POS Hyundai. Mine’s paid for so I don’t want it to get messed up. Oh, I also don’t do it because it’s rude, but that isn’t as exciting and fight-provoking as my first reason!
Bitchy? Too bad. I love my car and in fact, I have two. Until you are riding a fucking bike for a 40 mile one-way CA commute, shut up. I have two kids and a huge dog, and I use my extra space damn near every day. But I don’t have to in order to justify my choice of vehicle ownership. Get it?
I can afford just about any car I want. I chose Land Rovers. If you can’t or don’t, I don’t care.
