Raising that hand out of position against 2 players isn’t aggressive. It’s retarded.
Do you know what the odds of hitting a set are holding a pocket pair?
He has the chance at a pot with 3 bets in it for half a bet. Given his implied odds, that’s close. When he raises it, he’s just made his life worse in the following ways:
put in 1.5 bets when there’s only 3 in the pot
Probably chased out the BB
Given himself the chance of getting re-raised (and what then??)
Probably gotten himself heads-up without position against a player that either has him completely dominated, or is at best 50-50.
It is inconceivable to raise with 4’s in that scenario.
Small pair from the small blind, you’re hoping to get in cheap and hit your set. And, he should have bet the flop. You can’t hope for the bet from UTG when there’s 2 spades on the board. He’s just as scared of it as you are. Take that pot down, Otto.
Second hand: sometimes you gotta throw away AQs. One of those times is when there’s a big middle position raise, a smooth call from the button and you’re in the blinds.
Even if you thought you had the raiser beat, how could you think you had UTG beat? What could he have been calling with that you beat?
The thing is, even if he DOESN’T have you beat, how can you play against him? Basically, you’re hoping for an uncoordinated board, with a Q-high showing so you have top pair, best kicker. You can’t play a board with an A on it because of fear of AK.
You can’t play a board with a K on it.
You’re losing to all pocket pairs.
Let’s say you do hit your flush or a straight. How are you going to get money out of either of them? Hope that they have KJs???
UTG wasn’t in hand 2. The raise came from middle position and called by the button. One or the other of them certainly could’ve had me beat with AK or a pocket pair, but it could just as easily have been that I was looking at AJs or even worse.
Fair enough. I don’t entirely agree, but it’s not a bad move. If everyone is limping in and I’m holding a low pair, to me that’s a signal that I need to raise before the flop and try and get some of these people out of the hand. They probably don’t have you beat before the flop, because if they were holding good hands, then they would have raised. So why give some of these people the chance to possibly make a higher pair on the flop?
See, this is where I think you got too cute. If there wasn’t a flush draw on the flop, I’d say OK - go for the check raise. But there was a flush draw, so why take the risk? Again, at that point you need to get people to fold and the only way you’re going to do that is to make a good-sized bet.
I agree with your actions here. It doesn’t seem to me like you had much of a choice at that point.
Look, you pick two random people from a table, and your AQs is almost definitely better.
You take a guy who raises in middle position, and a guy who smooth calls from the button, and you’re beat. And like I said, if you’re not beat, you’re not getting any money out of your opponents.
By calling, you’re saying “I want to see the flop”. Just what kind of flop are you hoping to see?
Are you familiar with the concept of “reverse implied odds”? Your hand has it in spades, no pun intended.
IF you have a read on middle position as a crazy raiser, and IF you have a read on the button as a total calling station (a calling station to the river), it’s more of a call. Why would you think a guy smooth calls from the button with something worse than AQs?
Are they out there? SURE, there’s tons of 'em.
But, when you sit down cold at a table, I’d suggest starting out from a more conservative point of view.
At the very least, if you think the AQs is best pre-flop, move some chips in.
You can limp in with a small pair before the flop. You’re hoping for a set. You’re about 7-1 against hitting it, so if there’s lots of players in and you can expect them to stay, it’s a “value-play” to raise.
He’s only getting 6-1 immediately on the call, but the implied odds of the set make it playable (he can hit the set and get paid off by big 2 pairs or overpairs). Call and hope the BB doesn’t raise.
The two hands highlight a big difference. You’re playing on “hope” in both of them, but the amount of money you can take down if your “hope” hits is vastly different.
The 4’s have positive implied odds. The AQs has reverse implied odds.
Hand #1: I failed to note that you were in the small blind, so the preflop call was OK.
It’s hard to read much into the fact that someone bets UTG preflop; an awful lot of people have no concept of position play, or else they just don’t do it very well. There are times for fancy plays and finesse and times for brute force, and flopping a set with two spades on the board is no time for subtlety. Just bet it big.
What was the buy-in? The reason I ask is that you get much looser (poorer) play in cheap tournaments and I would not fold AQ in that situation. I cannot believe some of the crap that folks play in these cheap tournaments, but then again I can believe it. If I was t a 10 player $50 sit-n-go at the Bicycle Casino and that happened I would probably fold. If I am playing the 99 cent tournament at Pokertropolis I call everytime.
For the first hand. I think you can raise 3x (it depends on what the blinds are relative to the average stack, of course). What this does is: a) probably scare off marginal draing hands; b) if someone stays in you have some information; c) if you get a re-raise you can still get out, depending on the size; and d) sets up the est of the hand, you are the guy who raised out of the SB. You have got to have something strong, right? Of course you have to be willing to follow up strong. But this is not the “right” play, nor is what Trunk advocates the “right” play. I think you can play this a couple of ways. Personallly,if the blinds are smalish I would probably play it the “aggresive” way and if the blinds are pretty large I would take the cheap flop. However, after the flop you should have definitely made it expensive for someone to stay in. You should get rid of the drawing hands, there probably is not ahand that beatsyou at that point, and if you get a caller the pot is that much bigger and you are ahead. You still might lose, but that’s poker. You can’t control everything.
Everyone folds. This is good, but very unlikely. You just had 2 callers, suggesting they might call a raise here, too.
Everyone folds but 1, who calls or reraises. In this case, you’ve just put in more money and you’re either a small favorite (to 2 overcards) or a HUGE dog.
The big blind folds and the original callers call. Now what? You just destroyed your implied odds by putting in all that money pre-flop.
Now, when MIGHT I raise those 4’s? It’s folded around to a thief on the button who raises and you suspect he’s trying to steal again.
It’s just 3 handed or heads-up.
4’s is basically a piece of shit here. He had the chance to see a flop with a small pair getting 6-1 odds. I don’t know why you wanna mess around with that. It’s a passive play, to be sure, but sometimes passive is smart.
I agree with what everyone’s saying about betting the set on the flop in Hand 1. I usually do (because I get outdrawn so often) but I was certain that UTG was going to bet.
Because I see it every day. Every time I sit at a table, be it ring or tourney, I see people calling from every position with shit. The raiser could’ve had AK or a pocket pair, same for the button caller, but they could’ve been making the same plays with AJ or an even weaker A, or, as in this case, KJos. Yeah, if there’s an AK out there and an A hits the flop then I’m screwed, but OTOH if they’re making the move with a weaker A and an A hits then I probably take down a huge pot.
Otto, can we get a some more information regarding what the buy-in was and what the blinds were relative to the average chip stack (guesstimate). Thanks.
I think the thing aboutthe 4s that makes me somewhat disagree with Trunk is that this is a tournament and not a cash game. In a tournament you absolutely need to try and accumulate chips whenever you can. In a tournament if I go from 1000 to 800 it’s a blow but not tragic. In a cash game if I go from $100 to $80 thats $20 out of my pocket, so I would definitely check in a cash game and I think I would raise 3x in a tournament.
The tournament was a player points freeroll. Anyone who accumulated a certain number of points in the given timeframe was eligible. The starting field was 1203.
I don’t recall what the specific blinds were for these hands, or what the average chip stacks were. We were fairly deep into the tourney so the blinds would have been at least 600-1200 or possibly 800-1600. In each hand I was the chip leader at the table and one of the top 20 stacks in the tourney.