On Saturday I was playing in a live tournament where the winner gets a $4000 package to play in a WSOP event. 114 people started. Starting stack was 10000, starting blinds 25 50. The hands I would like an opinion occurred on the final table. By this stage I had 120000, final table average is 114000, blinds were 15000/30000 with a 2000 ante.
I’m in the BB everyone folds to the button who goes all in for 106000, SB folds I am in for 30K already with 90K back. I look at my hand, i have 3 3. I decide there is a good chance the all in move is a steal, and that if I call I am probably ahead in a race. I have no real info on the all in guy, as I have not seen him before the final table. I decide to call. He shows A 5 off suit, doesn’t improve and I win. I then get shouted at generally for the next 15 minutes, “How can you make that call” etc etc. I would love an impartial view from some doper poker players. What would you have done.
The second hand occurred later, 6 players are left, i have about 190K ish, blinds are 20K 40K with a 3K ante. The pot is unopened when it comes to me, I am under the gun. I look down I have A 8 os, I put a raise of 90K in, everyone fold to the BB who reraises all in and just about has me covered. I figure, I have half my stack in and if I fold I am in for half my stack as the BB next hand with a random hand, I have seen the BB push with QK previously in the tourney, so I decide to call. He has AQ, and there is a Q on the flop, however by the river I have a nut flush. Much abuse ensues.
Again, what would doper pokers have done here?
Unfortunately I finished 3rd for £200 instead of managing to take down the main prize. Here is a piccie taken at the event, I’m the guy on the right
My immediate thought is that you’re playing with a bunch of rude bstrds. :rolleyes:
On your first hand, the blinds + ante have reached the stage where you can’t wait for a long time without betting. The average stack goes bankrupt after two rounds - of course there’s going to be risk-taking.
So playing a small pair after everyone folds to a button all-in (which could almost be any two cards) is perfectly reasonable to me.
On your second hand, I might not have bet 90K, although I would have bet something. However you’d played quite a few hands with those guys, so I’m certainly not saying you were wrong.
As for calling, see previous answer. A round of 6 hands at this stage uses up 78K - you can’t afford to be too choosy.
I expect the other players were upset at your luck - maybe once they learn how to play poker properly they’ll shut up about bad beats.
So you got abused for beating an A-rag offsuit, then abused for playing one? These dudes need to look in a mirror. It’s difficult to fault just about any move to open when you’re down to 3 or 4 x the BB - anything short of total rags are playable if the alternative is having to go all-in blind. I’m not sure I would have made the 3s call, but that would depend on my read on the guy. But A5o is far from a monster, and he was attempting to steal.
That’s an easy call. The bet was only a bit more than 3 times the big blind, and you read the hand right. I suppose he could have had higher pp, but, to me, that’s a no brainer call. If it was the guy you beat doing all the talking, it’s just sour grapes from a loser. If the rest of the table joined in, they’re assholes. And not very good poker players if they need to be talking that much about a hand they weren’t in.
Putting aside the poor show of heaping abuse, I think it wasn’t a good raise to begin with, but the call was pretty much the only thing to do. With 130K already in the pot and 60,000 in blinds coming up, you’d be an idiot not to put your last 60,000 in. You got really damn lucky though.
By the by, I think it sounds like a pretty crappily run tourney if they allow that kind of abuse to go on. And I hate the end of the tourney because it sounds like the blinds and small stacks pretty much took any skill out of the game.
Case #1: You had a hand that was a coinflip to AK with 1/4 of your stack already in the pot in the BB (Call 70K to win 130K). With no previous action he could have had anything at that point. Decent call.
Case #2: I’m confused. UTG generally means you were in 1st position yet you say “the pot is unopened when it comes to me.” Anyway, with the blinds as high and being just 6-handed I like the raise. After your raise you were getting 3-to-1 and had no choice.
Like Hamlet, I wonder about the structure. Those are pretty big blinds given the chip stacks at that point. It was possible people were just hanging on, but it sounds like blinds were a little too steep there at the end.
Missed the edit window. In case #2, though, I’d have just pushed myself. If you’re priced into calling anyway, why not put it in in the first place. Was there seriously a flop you would have folded to at that point?
Just to add that the poker casino where I play tournaments has rules against the crass behaviour at your table at your table:
‘We expect our members to be courteous and respectful towards our staff and other members at all times.’
‘Members who are intoxicated on arrival will not be permitted entry. Members will be monitored through the night and if found to be acting in an unacceptable manner will be refused further alcoholic drinks.’
‘The Club’s Duty Managers have the right to exclude any member or guest whose behaviour they deem unacceptable.’
Plus the following are not permitted:
Verbally or physically threatening, any customer or employee
Using profanity or obscene language
Creating a disturbance by arguing, shouting, or making excessive noise.
this was played in a casino. The players had all qualified in local pub leagues. The abuse was not from everyone at the table only from eliminated parties and their railbird supporters.
Aha. I blame the casino for not shutting up bad losers and spectators.
15 minutes of abuse by people not playing? :eek: What sort of casino is that? :rolleyes:
Situations like these are why I avoid tourneys generally. 30000 blinds with the average chip stack at 114000??? I am on the side of poker bring a game of skill rather than luck, but games like that are all about getting lucky with the cards.
It started out fine with 10 K stacks 25 50 initial blinds (first 3 levels at 30 minues) Blinds later went down to 20 mins and antes came in, 9 hours in everyone was redzoned, final table wasn’t for another 90 mins or so after that.
Agreed about the structure - seems it started out OK, but at a final table where the average stack is <4BBs (as seems to be the case) you can’t play poker, it’s a crapshoot. OTOH, there may not be much the organisers could have done about it - in my (limited) experience, inexperienced tournament players (as most of you probably were if most people qualified from local pub leagues) tend to be too conservative with their chips in tournaments, letting themelves be ground down by the blinds. In any poker situation, and particularly tournaments, you’re generally struggling if you have <8BBs and should get all-in at the first opportunity.
With this is mind, your plays were fine, as others have said, with the exception that on #2, I would have pushed all-in straightaway rather than raised 90k (as Cyberhwk said). After all, you have to call the all-in re-raise anyway, so why not put the pressure on to start with? Sure, anyone with AQ probably going to call anyway (unless you somehow have a very tight table image, which is unlikely at this stage, especially given the hand with 33 you mention :)), but if they have A9, maybe they fold.
I agree with the comments so far.
You played the first hand correctly, your assumption that it was a steal attempt was dead on. The A-5 offsuit all-in was a stretch and you made him pay for it. In hindsight, since his hand didn’t improve, almost every other hand would have beat him.
I see how some may think calling with pocket 3’s is wrong but calling in the BB position is the correct move. Anyone who would play it differently would be playing not to lose instead of playing to win.
In the second hand, you pot-commited yourself with your opening bet of 90K, leaving yourself in a vulnerable position to a raise or an all-in behind you putting the presssure to call back on yourself. Luckily, you flushed but unless you intented to go all-in with A-8 off-suit, I’m not sure I would have played it this way.
Hand 1 is a mandatory call. With the blinds that high folding in situations even close to this is a sure way to get blinded off. Not only are calling with any pair, but also with any Ace, almost any two cards Ten and above, and even a few K9s type hands. You’re getting about 2.3:1 on your call. Even if you’re dominated (e.g. A6 vs. AJ) or you have just one overcard to your opponent’s pocket pair (K9 vs. JJ) you’re nearly getting your odds, and considering that you’ll be a favorite or close to it a lot of the time with mediocre hands, your calling range is very wide.
Hand 2: at that point in the tournament, any hand you might have is push or fold; the blinds are just too valuable to dick around with smaller raises (or especially to consider raise-fold). (Ok, maybe if you have AA or KK you could get cute with it.) Stealing the blinds here nearly doubles your stack (and hence your chances of winning), so pushing with A8o UTG is probably correct depending on how the rest of the table (especially the BB) is playing. If you were in, say, 3rd position, then opening with a shove would be correct 100% of the time.
I think the OP played the hands correctly. Yes he could have gone all-in on the first bet in scenario 2. Heckling has no place in the game. IMO.
A couple of months ago, I played in a casino tournament, and there was 6 players left. Toureny payed top 5 places and I was the short stack.
Sensing to get in the money, the vultures were eyeing me to lose, and I went all-in preflop with A-K os. the big stack called me with 9-10 heart. The flop comes, A-K-3, with one heart. Big stack hits runner-runner flush to beat and he starts apologizing to me.
Heck, I wanted him to call, the only way I am going to get back in the tournament was to double up.
I want people to call me when I am the big favorite. I will win out in the long run.
This is why I generally avoid tournaments (I shouldn’t, I’m massively in the black lifetime playing them despite hating them). They often start out reasonable - but the payouts are so top heavy compounded by the fact that the final segment of play, which determines where the vast majority of money goes, is the least skillful part of the tournament and they’re designed to reduce the edge of a good player.
This is a perfect albeit extreme example of that - first place is $4k, third place is $300ish (not sure what the conversion rates are) - a very steep payout. So is there a lot of play the end to determine who gets first place, which is massively more important than getting second or third? No, by this stage we’re playing with less than 4 bets per hand, which is closer to multiplayer slots than poker.
This is a prime example of why tournaments as they’re commonly run are utterly ridiculous.
As to the OP, 33 is a fairly easy call. People massively overestimate the value of low pairs in tournaments, especially calling with them, but in this case by the nature of the ridiculous blind structure your calling range is huge. As for the second part, there’s no reason to raise 90k. It’s not like you’re going to fold to a raise here and you risk putting yourself in a really nasty position on the flop, so just push.
Most people don’t adjust well to extremely crapshooty structures like that. You should push with nearly anything and call with most of that.
