Anarchy, and delivery of complex services

We’ve recently had a self-proclaimed anarchist join the board, (and oh, hey, welcome aboard dude, in case I forgot to say it in your first thread), and I’ve found my mind wandering back to the little I know about anarchism as a bona fide political philosophy, and I find I’m curious something. There’s a little anarchist/collectivist bike repair shop down the road from me, and it seems to function. I know that during the Spanish Civil War the Anarchists were involved, and that they could fight. and that there have been a few anarchist or protoanarchist communities in the world.

But…here’s my question coming up now…assuming for the moment that an anarchist political system(*) came into power in, say, [del]Kanada[/del], cough Canada, how would this system deliver complex products such as health care - and more specifically, for a concrete example, a CAT scan.

In Canada, CAT scan machines costing millions of dollars, are sold for profit to regional health authorities, who put them into hospitals. Highly trained technologists run them for a paycheck, while specialist doctors are paid - usually with tax dollars from the health authority, and usually by the examination- for their interpretation of the meaning of the images. The report is then sent to the ordering physician. How would this work under our new anarchist overlords?
(1) Leaving aside the oxymorons, what I mean is political system run under anarchist principles, rather than chaos.

Poorly, I assume.

So do I, but I was hoping to hear at least a half-assed attempt at explanation from someone who claims to be an anarchist, or at least claims to know something about it.

But once you get much beyond perhaps a neighborhood-sized group, wouldn’t anarchy result in chaos?

I’m not sure what level of “disaggregation” you’re implying, but the market as a whole operates without control and is pretty independent of the state. In your case the hospital and the CAT scan manufacturers would do business with each other as independent entities, and the doctors would be employers or contractors with the hospital, renting time on the machines.

You’ll probably have a different patient population: the indigent would no longer be subsidized, and neither will medical education. Nevertheless, the system would continue to function. If you’re worried about reliability, reputation effects currently work pretty well to constrain the kludge potential in competitive companies.

I’m an anarchist (actually, an anarcho-capitalist) and I don’t see any problem with CAT-scan delivery, or anything else. Hospitals or other health-care corporations would own the scanners, and collect payment from individuals (or their insurance companies) on a per-use basis. The owner would have his capital at risk, and would reap the rewards for a well-delivered product or service.

Anarchy does not mean chaos, after all. It merely means lack of a state. You could have large, complex, highly organized entities like hospitals and other corporations, but they would not have the coercive power of a state (i.e., guns and prisons to enforce their unilateral decisions); they would continue to exist only if they performed well enough in a competitive marketplace to attract consumers…TRM

Like Tim said, anarchy means “no rulers”, not “no rules”. Health care delivery would work fine under anarchy, assuming the anarchist system was fully implemented (a current impossibility given human nature and the realities of a scarcity-based economy) - it would be organised on collectivist rather than capitalist principles, is all.

Who makes and enforces the rules? Whoever it is that does so, are they not rulers?

ISTM that collective forms of government, in which no particular person or small group of persons is the “ruler”, don’t work beyond a certain size after which the system becomes too unwieldy to function.

But those who enforce the rules become, ipso facto, the rulers. That’s why I don’t believe anarcho-capitalism to comprise anarchy, really. If property is still monopolised by those able to defend it (by force of arms if necessary), then anyone whose life was dependant upon that property (in this case a medical treatment) would still be in thrall to their property-owning overlords to no lesser an extent than if a government owned it. Anarcho-capitalism = plutocracy in my book.

Genuine anarchism and collectivism start from Proudhon’s maxim: Property is theft. And the moment any band of gun-toting simians start monopolising resources, the system fails unless the collectivists start toting more, bigger guns and organising themselves into an effective military/political structure. In which case the system is no longer anarchy, but something more like Marxism.

Like Rudolph Rocker said, “I am an Anarchist not because I believe Anarchism is the final goal, but because there is no such thing as a final goal.”

Yes, but with no ‘rulers’ (or, one presumes, courts with the monopolization on the use of force) how do those rules get enforced? If Hospital A contracts for CAT B at monthly payments of X dollars, what’s to stop them simply deciding not to pay? You say reputation, and fine, but what if Hospital A has decided that they only need that one machine, and they’ve got a good relationship with their regular supplies of non CAT equipment, so they can rip off the CAT producer. Or what if the owner of the hospital has a brother who owns CAT Manufacturer C, and he’ll supply the hospital anyways from there on in but they decided to rip off A. What happens then?

How, in short, are contracts enforced with no actual means of enforcement? Even if we don’t assume outright theft, honest disputes happen all the time. How do those get resolved? If the answer is a 100% volunteer driven and voluntarily engaged in pseudo-court, what happens if one party disputes the ruling/refuses to submit to pseudo-court A because they prefer the philosophy of pseudo-court Q? Or they simply don’t like the verdict?

How is currency managed? Do we simply work based on who holds the most precious materials? Go back to barter? What about crime? If Tim rapes and kills Suzy, is there any legal recourse other than mob violence?
And speaking of violence, how do we organize for the common defense? Mexican gangs are currently brutal and quite determined. What’s to stop them from literally claiming territory in, say, LA? If it’s to be individual militias, how are they coordinated on the local level? If they have commanders, how does that differ from a volunteer army? If numerous militias are grouped together to defend larger swaths of territory than one each militia’s home towns, then how does that differ from our army? If the answer is “people would be free to leave whenever they wanted”, how would that differ from our current army if we simply instituted a policy that allowed people to leave if they chose to?

How do roads/large public works get built? If Mega Interstate 1 needs to go through somewhere but all the communes say no, can two ends of a country simply be unreachable if the ‘community decision making processes’ of various (towns/villages/collectives/whatever) can’t agree and all local roads eventually terminate? What if local districts refuse to pay for roads beyond their boundaries at all, do we just accept that long range commerce stops?

How do we assure citizens that food/drugs/whatever are safe? Can Meat Packers B use shoddy safety and serve people e coli infested beef until they get caught? How can we even track the spread of vectors of disease if the home of Meat Packers B enjoy the profits that the company brings to the commune, and they won’t permit any investigation to prove whether or not their goods are tainted? What if, while they’re at it, Meat Packers B decide to label their goods as Meat Packers A once the scandal breaks, using packages that are identical to those that A uses?

What is Commune A decides that they all took a vote, and 99% of them decided that gay people have no rights? What if moving from Commune C through The Kingdom of Phil, Phil decides he doesn’t like you and will take your car and keep your wife as his personal sex slave. What are your options?

What if Miners B get a monopoly on all iron mines and enough armed goons to shoot every striking worker fifty times over, and then they decide that 20 hour a day shifts, 7 days a week is the new rule? What if a group of communes band together and raid another group and simply declare that all prisoners are now slaves?

What’s to keep modern, pluralistic, republican, democratic systems with checks and balances, the rule of law, equality before the law, (and so on) intact? What keeps a nation the size of the US, or a populace as large and varied as the entire planet’s, from devolving into numerous Congos or Zimbabwes? Is there a single example of a modern nation dissolving into a stateless entity without it turning into something like Afghanistan? Because if violence and bloodshed are the only actual examples of what happens when we get rid of government in a modern nation, then what reason is there to assume that counter-examples are even possible?

Etc, etc, etc…

In other words, if there’s no real politics other than gang/intergang/intragang warfare (or gang/ntergang/intragang cooperation) writ large, and it’s pretty much impossible from the standpoint of actual ordering principles and governance, then what we are discussing is not really a political philosophy at all, but, instead a social ideology. Or perhaps more accurately, a social dogma.
And, if it is:

… then what differentiates it from a suggestion that nobody will ever need to work again and mana will simply rain down from the sky?

It’s semantics, but when everyone enforces the rules collectively, then, effectively, no-one in particular does.

I agree completely. Anarchy is essentially anti-capitalist, a-c is a sham. Or redwashing.

That’s why I said anarchism doesn’t work in a scarcity-based economy. It’s an ideal to be wished for, but I’m not certain, absent a Kurtzweill-style Singularity or radical change in manufacturing like cheap replication tech, that I’ll live to see it achieved.

I think you missed the recent threads on anarchism, and post-scarcity societies. I think you might have enjoyed them.

A post-scarcity society is not physically impossible nor even that hard to formulate, is what.

That’s not semantics, that’s magic. The idea that a nation of 300 million, let alone a planet of, what, 7+ billion, will suddenly not only agree on what the rules are and how to enforce them, but actually engage in that enforcement equally and interpret the mode of enforcement exactly the same? You are talking magic, pure and simple. Or “Tomorrow, in Heaven”, or what have you.

Not only is it most certainly “hard to formulate”, it’s also quite physically impossible short of Unobtanium clad Zero Point Generators. Even then, you’re conveniently ignoring human nature itself. We’ve seen, time and again, that people who have virtually everything that their world can provide still desire numerous things, often among them, power over others. Sure you could have a ZPG, but I have troops and I can take your ZPG from you and make you work in the salt mines, and oh yeah, your wife looks cute too. Plus, your sons look able bodied and we have had a shortage of fighters for the gladiatorial games…
To (yet again) say nothing of honest disagreement and violent urges based on things other than acquiring land, labor or capital.

When I was a young child in school and the teacher assigned a logical proof for us to solve, if I had the start point and knew what I wanted the solution to read but couldn’t figure out what steps came in the middle, I’d work as far as I could and then just put in “and then a miracle happens.” before writing down the conclusion as the final step.

If you find that your social dogma requires several instances of “and then a miracle happens”, well, it’s probably not a particularly cogent plan.

I just want to point out that despite my username, I don’t actually espouse anarchy. You can call me a pussy now. :smiley:

I suspect that every large, complex organization would take on the coercive power of a state.

In fact one of the criticisms of the current capitalist system I often hear from my hard-leftie buddies is that mulitnational corporations (i.e. large, complex organisations) are able to do exactly this.

I believe the good little boys and girls who believe in fairies clap their hands at some point, but the mechanism is poorly understood.

Regards,
Shodan

Like I said, not workable or realistic now, but it hardly requires magic to develop a post-scarcity society.

I think you’re confusing “post-scarcity” with “free energy” or something…

I’m not ignoring it. I agree that current human nature is against anarchy. Unlike you seem to, I do, however, believe it is possible to change human nature. Yes, one could argue, the result might no longer be considered human by us, but it’s not an impossibility.

No-one’s said an anarchist society would have no mechanisms for conflict resolution or crime prevention. Anarchists drive drunk and beat their girlfriends, I’m sure. But such methods do not require the mechanism of state or ruler to function. The collective can be self-policing.

I deny that any miracles are required. Yes, radical changes would be needed, but no impossible ones. But like I said, I don’t forsee it happening in my lifetime.

In my anarcho-capitalist utopia, “the rules” are the rules of self-interest and of the free market. They need not be enforced, because they arise out of the essence of human nature and self-interest. As long as society is set up in a way that pursuing ones self-interest benefits society as a whole (which it does in an a-c, ayn-rand type of system), nobody needs to enforce the rules. They enforce themselves.

Maybe you could explain just what a post-scarcity society is and how it could be achieved. It’s been a while since I’ve taken an economic course but scarcity doesn’t seem like it’s going away any time soon. Even if we take something that we have an unlimited supply of, let’s just say solar energy for the sake of argument, there’s only so much solar power that can be collected and distributed in a given period of time. Scarcity.

It seems to me that any philosophy predicated on fundamentally changing human nature is just pie-in-the-sky idealism. You gotta deal with what you have not some ideal you wish to have. This is my fundamental problem with anarchy. It’s in the realm of fantasy and not rooted in realism.

Odesio